I assume you guys have seen this...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74202

That's the most comprehensive and honest apology I have ever seen from an F1 driver. I expect the team would have maintained that they gave all the information they needed to and kept up the BS, but now Hamilton has ratted them out there is no doubt they intentionally withheld the information.

I think that can put on a lightbulb to Amp88 that maybe Hamilton is starting to think for himself, but it probobly won't be good enough for him anyway.

Fair play to Lewis, very good attitude indeed.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Oh yes Shotglass, very funny, especially when taken out of context. Makes me look a bit of a spanner.

And to think, i was gonna complement you on the "Smoking Man" insinuation.

you? what have you got to do with sams well documented tinfoilhattery?

Quote from BlueFlame :

I think that can put on a lightbulb to Amp88 that maybe Hamilton is starting to think for himself, but it probobly won't be good enough for him anyway.

I already commented on this interview before. What else could Hamilton have done after they were caught lying? Did you expect him to just ignore the press? Obviously he had to say something to the cameras to try to salvage his image so he could keep his sponsorship deals and fan club members. He cheated, he got caught and now he's blaming it on other people. He's not taking responsibility.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Trulli said he had to pass Hamilton because "he was way more slow than the pace car" http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7979304.stm what pace car ?

Read: safety car, as here.

Q. Did the team tell you to give him his position back?
JT: At that moment, no. I called the team asked what was going on and the team said "Okay, stay there". Because the team has to go back to Charlie (Whiting) to see what is going on. I knew that I should have given the position back, but the rules say that if the car in front of you cannot keep a certain speed to follow the safety car or is in trouble, you can overtake that car.


Also, I can't watch BBC Media (apart from text) because they don't have worldwide transmission rights, so their media are for UK viewers only. So I repeat what someone else said before in this thread: people from outside UK can't watch or listen to BBC multimedia content about F1. If possible please provide another source because that one isn't accessible to all forum users outside of UK and I don't want to go looking for anon UK proxies just to watch a clip.

Quote from amp88 :

I already commented on this interview before. What else could Hamilton have done after they were caught lying? Did you expect him to just ignore the press? Obviously he had to say something to the cameras to try to salvage his image so he could keep his sponsorship deals and fan club members. He cheated, he got caught and now he's blaming it on other people. He's not taking responsibility.

Imo it wasn't Hamiltons fault, but he shouldn't of lied in the first place.

Mclaren seriously have alot of in team issues that need to be sorted out though.

this is probably the first time lewis has seemed fustrated with hes team by putting the blame on the sporting director(which was proven to be hes fault anyway), but you don't see stuff like this said from a driver.

Quote from Mustafur :

putting the blame on the sporting director(which was proven to be hes fault anyway), but you don't see stuff like this said from a driver.

Well, not necessarily. I'm sure someone here mentioned earlier that McLaren could have paid off Ryan to take the fall and to stop accusations that it actually originated higher up in the McLaren food chain. If someone higher up was involved (for example Whitmarsh or Dennis) McLaren could be subject to heftier penalties. Given their track record I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but at the moment there isn't any evidence to support it.

Quote from amp88 :

Well, not necessarily. I'm sure someone here mentioned earlier that McLaren could have paid off Ryan to take the fall and to stop accusations that it actually originated higher up in the McLaren food chain. If someone higher up was involved (for example Whitmarsh or Dennis) McLaren could be subject to heftier penalties. Given their track record I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but at the moment there isn't any evidence to support it.

possiblely true, but we can only speculate.

Quote from Albieg :

Also, I can't watch BBC Media (apart from text) because they don't have worldwide transmission rights, so their media are for UK viewers only. So I repeat what someone else said before in this thread: people from outside UK can't watch or listen to BBC multimedia content about F1. If possible please provide another source because that one isn't accessible to all forum users outside of UK and I don't want to go looking for anon UK proxies just to watch a clip.

Ahhh sorry, i didn't realise it was UK only (even though it says it on the page, lol)

The clip is the in-car footage from Trullis car as he was following and overtaking Hamilton, he then slows right down a little later. I've just had a quick look for a Youtube version, but no joy i'm afraid. I'll have to have another look later in the day and get back to you. (It's nothing startling tbh, just, if we begin to pick apart Trulli's version of events in the same manner we're doing with Hamilton, then we can (if we're being objective) question how much effort did he truly (pun intended) put into avoiding overtaking him.

But, as i said previously, i'm only splitting hairs, not trying to start another arguement. What Mcamilton did was wrong and has rightly been punished for it. But this witch hunting attitude is becoming a tad irksome, and it always seems to be magnified x10 when it's the silver cars/drivers in the wrong. If this had been a Schumacher or Senna, then it would have probably been over and done with within a few hours. But with Hamilton, it just goes on and on and on....anyway, qualifying in a few mins.


@Shotglass, i'm starting to worry about you tbh. Since Kev left, you appear to be getting your German sense of humour back...

Quote from Timdpr :

I think F1 should be more like football. Give them penalties when they're racing, but when they finish, it stays like that. Any subsequent penalties - things that have to be decided upon after the race - are applied to races after. They don't go back and change the result!

Off topic but they actually do. For example if a team used too many foreign players.

Quote from evilpimp :

... A DSQ plus possibly getting excluded from the season is a bit much.

You think? Look at it from the perspective of the bubble that is F1. What would you say in the context of a sport alone is the most important thing ??

Most sports consider cheating to be extremely significant. Very few sports treat cheating lightly. Lying (explicitly as Hamilton did, far as the FIA is concerned) to gain an extra place in a sporting event isn't tantamount to cheating, in most sporting bodies books it IS cheating. What happens to sprinters if they're caught cheating?? do they get a rap on the knuckles and their medal taken away? No, they very often get a ban, usually of at least one season, sometimes a lifetime one. So in the context of sport in general I would say Hamilton will be pretty lucky if he's allowed to race for the rest of the season. He could justifiably have been so much more severely punished for what he has been found culpable of.

But the FIA already hinted that any further action would be taken against the team and not the driver.

Gezmoor have you ever done racing for real? If you had you would know this kind of thng happens quite a lot and excluding drivers for a season for something that wasn't really cheating but a team trying to regain a position that was rightfully there's anyway would be way too harsh.

DSQ from the race is probably the most suitable conclusion. Would you agree that Schumi in Monaco should have been excluded from the season in 2006 after parking it in quali. The stewards thought it was delivebate so isn't this MISLEADING them and thus worthy of exclusion?

Should Rubens be excluded from ramming Kimi out of position of nearly causing a puncture.

I've known people to do A LOT worse and certain drivers you all admire have pasts that can easily be brought into question as well so lets get some perspective!

Yes Macca f^%ked up but some perspective is needed

Quote from Intrepid :

Gezmoor have you ever done racing for real? If you had you would know this kind of thng happens quite a lot and excluding drivers for a season for something that wasn't really cheating but a team trying to regain a position that was rightfully there's anyway would be way too harsh.

DSQ from the race is probably the most suitable conclusion. Would you agree that Schumi in Monaco should have been excluded from the season in 2006 after parking it in quali. The stewards thought it was delivebate so isn't this MISLEADING them and thus worthy of exclusion?

Should Rubens be excluded from ramming Kimi out of position of nearly causing a puncture.

I've known people to do A LOT worse and certain drivers you all admire have pasts that can easily be brought into question as well so lets get some perspective!

Yes Macca f^%ked up but some perspective is needed

So what would it require exactly before you felt that a driver/team should be excluded from a season? just what kind of behaviour would warrant such a punishment in your opinion, if not attempting to cheat by attempting to gain a place by causing someone to be unfairly penalised??

I'm not arguing whether the FIA's assesment of what Hamiltons/McLarens motives were is correct, but the above is essentially the conclusion they have reached. Leaving asside for a moment the debate as to whether this conclusion is justifiable or not, would you not agree that such actions should warrant a severe penalty?

You seem to be of the opionion that "anything goes" in motorsport, on the basis that it's a competitive (real mans) sport. Where exactly would you draw the line exactly? or don't you hold to the principle of sportsmanship and fairplay at all??

Quote from gezmoor :

So what would it require exactly before you felt that a driver/team should be excluded from a season....

Have you ever spent your own money racing? Have you ever witnessed people spending thousands, if not millions to go motor racing. This is a cut throat business and people will try A LOT worse things than what McLaren tried to pull. It's about proportion and perspective. if the FIA gave them a season ban for that then at the end of the year there won't be many cars gracing FIA grids. it's like banning a player for a season for diving inside the penalty box.

Yes they got caught and yes they should be punished, but banning them for the whole season? Come on! a 2-race ban would be the most I think that would be acceptable.

What deserves a season ban? Putting someone's life in unnecessary danger. Did McLaren do that? eer.. no!

Quote from Intrepid :

that wasn't really cheating but a team trying to regain a position that was rightfully there's anyway

No, it is cheating. You cannot have people skewing the judicial process to get what they think is the right result. Where would it end? It wasn't McLaren's decision as to who should rightfuly be 3rd and they were punished for misleading the stewards.

The 3rd was rightfully theirs up until they let Trulli back past. Just as Trulli made the mistake of going off track and gifting Hamilton 3rd, McLaren made the mistake of letting Trulli past again and therefore forfeited any right they had to that 3rd place.

Quote from Intrepid :

that wasn't really cheating

You find a random $10 note on the ground. Legally, that $10 note can be yours. However, you go out of your way to find the owner and return the note.

A police officer sees the transaction, and somehow mistakes it as a robbery. He arrests the other person and forces him to return the $10 note back to you and charges him.

You could have been honest and said, "no officer, this is actually his and I was giving it back", but decide to shut your mouth and let the other guy suffer.

In time, it turns out there is conclusive proof, that the transaction was not a robbery.

Were you right or wrong?

=====================

Trulli runs off the track during a SC period, and Hamilton overtakes him. Hamilton can legally retain his position, but instead gives the place back to Trulli.

Stewards mistakenly think that Trulli overtook Hamilton under SC, and penalises him.

Hamilton could have been honest and said, "no sirs, I yielded the place back to him because the team told me to", but decides to shut his mouth and let Trulli suffer.

In time, it turns out there is conclusive proof that Hamilton did let Trulli pass him under SC.

Was Hamilton right or wrong?

======================

Lying to the stewards IS cheating. Yes, a season ban would be over-blown, but Hamilton - no, not just Hamilton, but the whole F1 grid - needs to know that lying will be punished.

Otherwise, agreed.

Quote from samjh :

You find a random $10 note on the ground. Legally, that $10 note can be yours. However, you go out of your way to find the owner and return the note.

A police officer sees the transaction, and somehow mistakes it as a robbery. He arrests the other person and forces him to return the $10 note back to you and charges him.

You could have been honest and said, "no officer, this is actually his and I was giving it back", but decide to shut your mouth and let the other guy suffer.

In time, it turns out there is conclusive proof, that the transaction was not a robbery.

Were you right or wrong?

=====================

Trulli runs off the track during a SC period, and Hamilton overtakes him. Hamilton can legally retain his position, but instead gives the place back to Trulli.

Stewards mistakenly think that Trulli overtook Hamilton under SC, and penalises him.

Hamilton could have been honest and said, "no sirs, I yielded the place back to him because the team told me to", but decides to shut his mouth and let Trulli suffer.

In time, it turns out there is conclusive proof that Hamilton did let Trulli pass him under SC.

Was Hamilton right or wrong?

======================

Lying to the stewards IS cheating. Yes, a season ban would be over-blown, but Hamilton - no, not just Hamilton, but the whole F1 grid - needs to know that lying will be punished.

Otherwise, agreed.

An excellent post, actually. Worth quoting again!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74368

Seems they're sticking with their story despite plenty of evidence to state otherwise. Very weird.

and hes still not thinking for himself
the press conference in malaysia clearly was a very very sincere appology...

thats just plain stupid....

For historic completeness: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=56403