I've been away from LFS for a while (switched to GTR because I like the physics better, but the quality of the racing is much much lower). It looks like a few patches have come out in the mean time. Is there a particular order to the patches or can I just load the most recent? I believe I have the first alpha patch, but nothing after that.

Thanks

You have P. Just install Q like normal. But there's no physics changes in Q.

May I ask, at the risk of this thread being hijacked, what you prefer about GTR's physics?

Quote from tristancliffe :

You have P. Just install Q like normal. But there's no physics changes in Q.

Cool. Thx.

Quote :

May I ask, at the risk of this thread being hijacked, what you prefer about GTR's physics?

Three things come to mind immediately (two of which are closely related):

1) Tire physics - maybe 'tire physics' isn't the correct phrase, but GTR seems to do a better job of modelling how the car interacts with the road surface. For example, when cars in LFS loose traction, they do so rather abruptly and suddenly, regardless of the cause of the loss of traction. In GTR the traction loss is very situation dependent. My biggest frustration with LFS was the propensity for RWD cars to exhibit snap oversteer at 20 mph and light throttle input when the front wheels were not straight (usually after a spin). In GTR, i can be in the grass, turn the wheel, floor it, and the car acts as a real car would; progressively.


2) Communication of the car's attitude - GTR seems to provide more feedback , visually and through the FF, about what the car is doing. Steering kickback from curbs, loose rear end under braking, etc. Visually, there seems to be more subtle screen shifts indicating something is going on.


3) Track surface - the 'texture' of the track is a little more apparent. bumps, rough versus smooth, etc. The feedback is through FF, as well as, sound. I can hear how close I am to the limit of adhesion by the sound of the tires on the road surface. Also, the vibrations through FF communicate quite a bit.


Basically, it boils down to tire physics and feedback (visual, audible, and FF).

I hope that made sense.

Hm I played only the demo and the only thing in the FF that was related to the actual happenings in the game was the curbs. Everything else was completely random...

My guess is that GTR is just far easier to driv, specially with keyboard... just floor it - no change to spin

Quote from Spinjack :

1) Tire physics - maybe 'tire physics' isn't the correct phrase, but GTR seems to do a better job of modelling how the car interacts with the road surface. For example, when cars in LFS loose traction, they do so rather abruptly and suddenly, regardless of the cause of the loss of traction. In GTR the traction loss is very situation dependent. My biggest frustration with LFS was the propensity for RWD cars to exhibit snap oversteer at 20 mph and light throttle input when the front wheels were not straight (usually after a spin). In GTR, i can be in the grass, turn the wheel, floor it, and the car acts as a real car would; progressively.

I think "progressively" and "GTR" words doesn't belong to the same sentence...

And LFS has more advanced tyre physics currently than in any other game, it's just a fact based on the amount of math that's being calculated. But the problem is that the current physicsc do have some serious problems with low speed grip and when regaining the grip. This a very know issue and Scawen (the dev) is hopefully working on it. We'll see if this issue gets fixed finally when (don't ask when) the next patch is released.

Quote :

2) Communication of the car's attitude - GTR seems to provide more feedback , visually and through the FF, about what the car is doing. Steering kickback from curbs, loose rear end under braking, etc.

GTR may give you more FF effects but the they're also literally so called canned _effects_, LFS takes the force feedback straigthly from the front tyres so it's simply more accurate. It might need some time to get used to but after you get, GTR/GTL/rFactor FF feels so bad.

And if you are using Logitech wheel, use these settings in the Logitech Profiler settings:
Overall Strength - 50-100 % whatever you prefer
Springs Strength - 0%
Damper Strength - 0%

And of course Centering Spring 0% too.

It's very important to turn those Springs and Damper effects to 0% as LFS doesn't produce them. And don't use too high FF settings ingame, e.g. 20-50 % is good depending on the car and the FF strength in the Profiler.

The tracks aren't very bumpy so it might feel you're not feeling the bumps... but if there aren't bumps of course you can't feeling them.

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Visually, there seems to be more subtle screen shifts indicating something is going on.

You mean visual G force simulation or what? Go to options / view and play around some time with the G force sliders. By default those are turned off.

And what comes to LFS's sounds, yes they sound like crap. That's because they're generated and give more feedback than sampled sounds. You'll hear the difference after some playing, it's just so much easier to REV the engine etc. when you know that what you hear is exactly what the engine is doing. But then again it sounds horrible. I'd say it's quite 50-50 between sampled vs. generated sounds.

Quote from Spinjack :

...
1) Tire physics - maybe 'tire physics' isn't the correct phrase, but GTR seems to do a better job of modelling how the car interacts with the road surface. For example, when cars in LFS loose traction, they do so rather abruptly and suddenly, regardless of the cause of the loss of traction. In GTR the traction loss is very situation dependent. My biggest frustration with LFS was the propensity for RWD cars to exhibit snap oversteer at 20 mph and light throttle input when the front wheels were not straight (usually after a spin). In GTR, i can be in the grass, turn the wheel, floor it, and the car acts as a real car would; progressively.

I have thought that it is the complete opposite. In LFS you lose grip very differently than you do in GTR. And imho in GTR it is the snap spin. Accelerating out of a slow corner and suddenly, wheee! In LFS it's more about throttle use. You can spin(/slide a bit) even when using less throttle but it will never be a snap. In GTR I usually never spin if I don't use full throttle when exiting corner.

Quote from Spinjack :

2) Communication of the car's attitude - GTR seems to provide more feedback , visually and through the FF, about what the car is doing. Steering kickback from curbs, loose rear end under braking, etc. Visually, there seems to be more subtle screen shifts indicating something is going on.

And again imho, in GTR it is very hard for me to know and see what the car is doing and how much faster could I go. I just don't get almost any feedback from the cars in GTR.

As tristan said, you don't have to worry about any order. Just install the newest patch. Actually, you don't even have to install the patch at all. I'm pretty sure the initial S2 Alpha release is still compatible with the current version.

@your comments on GTR:
Granted, I didn't give the GTR demo much time and I haven't tweaked any FF settings hidden in some config file, but I really found it to be the exact opposite of what you said.

In GTR, I couldn't tell what the car was doing if my life depended on it. Spins came totally by surprise and catching a slide was impossible, too. Everything felt more like I was in a hovercraft than in a car, no connected-to-the-road feel at all.

But each to his own, I guess

Sounds good on the patch. Thx for the input.



As far as game differences go, I just relayed my own experiences. A lot of it could be games setting difference (I pretty much used the defaults in both games). YMMV.

My intention isn't to knock LFS. I can appreciate the programming and research that had to go into it. Its been a few months since I raced in LFS. Maybe I'll have a different opinion after returning.

Edit: Just thought of a specific example. In GTR, if I run wide I get into the marbles. When that happens, I can feel the marbles through the FF and hear the change in the sound of the tires on the road. Also, I can tell if its just one side of the car on the marbles of if i am completely into them by the sounds, the FF, and the handling of the car.

Not to say LFS doesn't do that. I think the difference is in how the feedback (visual, audible, and FF) is presented.

I believe someone once mentioned a tactic that appliance stores use for selling things like TV's and stereos. They have a typical model next to a high end model. You watch/listen to the typical model for a bit, then switch to the high end model. It's obviously a little better but the difference isn't huge. Then you go back to the typical model and it's absolute garbage. You wonder how you could possibly live without the high end model.

Same sort of thing here.

Quote from Forbin :

I believe someone once mentioned a tactic that appliance stores use for selling things like TV's and stereos. They have a typical model next to a high end model. You watch/listen to the typical model for a bit, then switch to the high end model. It's obviously a little better but the difference isn't huge. Then you go back to the typical model and it's absolute garbage. You wonder how you could possibly live without the high end model.

Same sort of thing here.

We'll see.

Strapped myself into a FOX this past Friday.

Still have a few "wishlist" items, but Forbin wasn't far off the mark. I'll have to get back into the XRR for a true comparison, GT car vs GT car.