hi,

i was wondering if anyone has the habbit of using throttle and brakes at the same time. maybe to stabilise the car in corners??

i haven't tried that yet as i'm busy enough as it is already but when watching some replays i often find it interesting to see that the fast guys seem to very smoothly do corners with sometimes up to 10km/h higher speed (while i'm just managing with squealing wheels). i do try to drive as smoothly as possible but this difference strikes me as quite amazing. supernatural??

any comments?

cheers,

roland

Yes, its a very common technique called "left foot braking" - many professional racing drivers use it (Michael Schumacher, eg).

It enables you to more finely control the weight of the car into the corners.

And it lets you keep boost in the turbo.

i cant do this with my pedals any advice on how to get smoother conering?

Don't try hard.

As strange as it may seem, the harder you try the worse your steering becomes.
Also, try to go around the track in a slower car, XR GT for example. That usually helps with getting your line better. Everything that gets your head clear of the track helps. Perhaps try a different track for a while?

Vain

If your talking about using throttle in your normal braking area - that would be mainly affecting the brake balance (front/rear) and wouldn't be used on all corners (more throttle increases front bias) and would depend on the setup also I would guess... (I dont use throotle during braking myself but have brake bias slightly more forward than most. Its an area I can work on though) Thats got the cogs turning though, I remember seeing the fastest guys keep the throttle on for a short time when they first apply the brakes, which makes sence as it would prevent the tail coming around and allow for heavier initial braking I guess (this is all in relation to RWD for FWD it would obviously be reversed)

Throttle in mid corner on the other hand definately helps with car balance (wieght shift front to back) and can enable quicker apex speeds when you execute it right - but again it depends on the corner, what the car is doing and the setup... (and again its an area that I need improving on)

I've read that in racing you should spend 90% of the time accelerating hard and 10% of the time braking hard (which doesn't leave much time for coasting through the appex or braking/accelerating gently ) The fastest guys I notice all brake hard for shorter than I, carry 10-15km/hr more into the corner (at initial turn in point) than me while trailbraking to the apex (only hitting the slowest speed (appex speed) for the briefest of moments) and then accelerate out of the corner while doing it all smoothly so as not to upset the balance of the car (I trail brake but tend too wash off slightly too much speed before initial turn in and I begin trailbraking, nervous type I guess , and consequently hit my desired appex speed too early and end up coasting through the corner losing precious 10ths) I've also noticed the aliens amoung the LFS community don't seem to treat corners as simply as I, hard to discribe what I mean by that, but it's like they treat many corners as having more than one apex...

Hm good thread though has got me keen to go do a few more laps

yeah left foot breaking is one of the techniques you can use to help balance cars when cornering. The only car i really use it in are the fwd cars.. and even then i'm usually to busy shifting/healtoing to LFB.

i also use it in the formula cars since i use autoclutch for those.

Quote from danbmx_69 :

i cant do this with my pedals any advice on how to get smoother conering?

Separate the Axis in the control panel, and in the game.. And invert Axis in LFS..

I would say more beneficial to you would be to learn trailbraking, where you ease off the brakes to about 50% as you make your turning, until you hit the apex and want to hit the throttle. You can then brake a little later as you don't have to slow then coast in the turn, you will still be braking as you enter the corner. Then it is kind of automatic what you do in the transition from braking to accelleration, you will be easing off the brakes and easing back on the throttle at the same time. Someone else probably could describe trailbraking better than I can. With trailbraking, you have a much faster speed entering the turn and hit the speed at what you normally would turn in at when you reach the apex, then throttle away. Gets a little bit to get use to. I'd say I don't use both brakes and throttle to as you say, stabilize the car, it's just kind of automatic using them when you figure out trailbraking. Perhaps I'm wrong in all of this, but it's just my opinion.

Right foot braking to be honest, feels much better.

Quote from Kryten :

Yes, its a very common technique called "left foot braking" - many professional racing drivers use it (Michael Schumacher, eg).

It enables you to more finely control the weight of the car into the corners.

LFB is an independant technique which is said to save time shifting your foot from one pedal to the other. Although it is commonly used in brake/throttle balancing (using both pedals at once) it is a technique in its own right. Although balancing the car with throttle and or brake is a common technique, LFB is still used for the same purposes as RFB. I'm just calrifying this so some people don't get the impression that LFB is the same as using both pedals together. LFB has its own merits regardless of dual-pedal use. Of course it shines in dual-pedal situations for obvious reasons.

Many professional racers still use RFB (Reubens Barrichello).

i use my left foot for braking and clutchless downshifting on the big engined rwd cars (like FO8), because it's less likely to spin them that way

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Separate the Axis in the control panel, and in the game.. And invert Axis in LFS..

nice one for that well apreshated

I actually find that I go (or went!) faster when I braked early too. I would brake a touch earlier than those around me, yet I would come out of the bend as fast if not a bit quicker. I think its because the cars all settled and I can balance it on the throttle easier rather than the technique of rushing into the corner at the last minute. I also 'trailbrake' as mentioned. In fact I've started practising with it on the roads for real!

i left foot brake, cause its what im used to. i dont have a car lisence, only bike, and the only real driving ive done is karting, and lessons.

my brother has a car lisence, and his left foot does nothing on my pedels, he uses his right foot for everything. i think it looks funny

Hey v4, how's the leg doing (was it leg)? I've mentioned this on another thread about left foot / right foot here or possibly at RSC. I can NOT right foot brake driving in a sim on the computer. Using pedals that have no feel and with the axis located in the wrong position, etc. just messes it all up for me trying to right foot brake. I end up with no feeling and lock them up, can't get on the brakes fast enough in an emergency situation, can't get back on the throttle quick enough coming out of a corner..... Now in real life, I can't left foot brake in my vehicle. The same thing, I have no feel and I end up jamming the brakes on and braking HARD. It's funny how it's this way. I think it contributes to with a PC pedal system, you brake with a deflection where in a real car you brake with foot pressure. Also I noticed in paying attention to my real car pedals wanting to design a hanging pedal system with axis above, the throttle is long and skinny and hangs lower than the brake pedal. My foot position in a car is my heel rests beneath the brake pedal and the ball of my foot and toes twist and reach over to press the throttle. Then when I need the brake pedal, my foot just lifts and rotates on the heel to the brakes. With PC pedals, the pedals are pretty much the same size, or at least the lower edge are on the same plane. Combined with having to deflect the pedals down rather than pushing them back, my real life "foot style" cannot apply. I'm trying it right now and can only hit the throttle with my toes rather than the ball of my foot so I can't get the precice deflection I want. I've been sim racing since 1995 with Indycar Racing 2 and my first Thrustmaster T2 (which I still have and still works well) and from the first time I got behind the PC wheel, it was completely natural to left foot brake even though I never ever did in real life.

I must be a little weird. I right foot brake in my real life car but I left foot brake in all of my racing sims and both feel so normal in their respective situations but when I LFB in my real life car and RFB on my game pedals it feels so awkward.

I guess its the perfect scenario for me cuz left-foot braking does make you faster but yet I don't accidentally carry my sim-racing habits into my real-life car (at least the pedal usage)

P.S. Nighthawk - got lots of fond memories of Indycar Racing 2 myself too.

I can't actually physically RFB with the pedals I have in the position they're in, they just slide off the box they're pecariously pearched on. In a modern racing car the fastest technique is likely to be to brake very hard for short amounts of time and be full throttle the rest of the time, if you look at Achim T's stunning lap round the 'ring in the Sauber in the N2003 GTP mod he's either full throttle or full brakes for almost the whole lap, only lifting over the crests and the Karusell and sometimes he's on both pedals at the same time to balance the car. Older cars like the GPL cars will be fastest when your on the brake/throttle at the same time but they're a totally different art to a ground effects car.

What ever your driving the fastest way round a track is smoothly, turn your FF down to reduce any inexplicable bumps in it then hold your wheel so your barely holding it. I find when I get in a car I'll only ever hold the wheel and apply the minimum amount of force required to steer the car, in sim racing I tend to find I grip the wheel a lot harder than I need to, then turn the FF to ridiculous levels to compensate, I have never driven anything fast except for a Mini, but I'd really have thought a racing car will not be nearly as heavy to drive as karts. Even when one gets in a kart though you do not have to grip the wheel hard, a well shaped wheel will allow you to put a lot of force in when you need to whilst still barely gripping the thing.

I leaned to trail brake when playing GPL, and it's been very useful and easy technique to stabilize the car in and after the turn-in, in almost every sim after that. Never tried with fwd cars though, like Thisnameistaken... :o

edit: i really need to get rid of those 2-line sentences. help me!

hi again,

interesting to hear that not everybody is left foot braking, i always assumed that that was the thing to do. anyway...
what i really try to find out is who is applying throttle and brakes at the same time. if doing that stabilises the car, where and how would you do that? and im not talking about easing off the brakes as one applies throttle to have a smoother transition.
and also i'm not quite sure i understand 'trail braking'. does it only mean that you don't get off the brakes suddenly?
i mostly drive the fxo-gtr, so maybe things are different in rwd cars??

cheers all,

roland

Hi I think you have understood trail breaking very well , its letting off the break progressively as you turn the car into the apex of a corner .


As for throttle and break at the same time I use this when in FWD especially when at the top end of rev range in a gear and wanting to knock off just a little speed for some of the longer corners an example of this that springs to mind is UF1 at FE1 (was/is on fairplayserver).

On the last combination of corners you dont really need to break at all , however in the 1st section of the long sweeping right last corner before the straight , sometimes holding gas down will make you a little to fast and if you let of gas some weight shifts forwards making the rear a bit frisky , so to lose a little speed with less of a shift in weight some break can be applied as you exit the final chicaine without letting off the fast pedal .

in rallyx of course I use handbreak while full throttle and also same technique as above for some places /cars .

SD.

Quote from BlueSkunk :

hi again,

interesting to hear that not everybody is left foot braking, i always assumed that that was the thing to do. anyway...
what i really try to find out is who is applying throttle and brakes at the same time. if doing that stabilises the car, where and how would you do that? and im not talking about easing off the brakes as one applies throttle to have a smoother transition.
and also i'm not quite sure i understand 'trail braking'. does it only mean that you don't get off the brakes suddenly?
i mostly drive the fxo-gtr, so maybe things are different in rwd cars??

cheers all,

roland

Trail braking is using the brakes and the steering to 'ride the traction circle'. When you brake 100% you have no capacity in the tyres to turn. But as you come off the brakes, you can being to turn - for example at 50% braking you can turn at about 30%, and 20% braking you can turn at about 90%.

Balancing the car with left foot braking is less easy to explain, although it's basis is also on 'riding the traction circle'. I'll let someone who can explain it properly do so, as my explaination would be a)poor and unclear and b) probably wrong.

tristan and dave,

good info, thanks. i guess i get the idea. i'll practise braking while on throttle, that sounds quite useful actually. also that 'traction circle' explanation sounds good, that's somthing i noticed already. i often don't brake at all after i figure out that by steering only i bleed off enough speed to make the corner. that way i corner faster with a lot less movement in the car.

thanks again,

roland

The other thing that I wondered is how the big FWD cars are driven, the setups I've seen have always been stable with an 80+ brake bias. I think with a rearward bias it may be quicker, using both pedals at the same time to balance the car, when I tried it though it didn't seem a very fast technique.