@Fordman
Good post. I support you on every point!
So many people are crying for realism and flaming on every little "arcade thing". Scawen support them too much in some points in the past. We will have to see what the future brings. The clutch will be alleviated before the final patch comes out. I´m sure .
I hope fun comes back and will never die.

I liked LFS now. its more fun now, and they change something in patches to keep us enterined. BUT there is one thing i dont like is we have 4 formula typee car... i want a something like radical or closed wheels car on slicks.

Thank You Fordman, I agree completely, you basically said what I could say in words.. What happened to LFS over the Autumn? I remember back in September everything was fine, but somethings not right, and something tells me that its Too much focus on the cars, and less interest on the ambience of LFS.

I mean, I think, To be honest, we could really get a Night Option in LFS going, the Night mod stinks, it sets the base level for the production of the Night Option though.

I'd say rain, and snow should be added too, YES I know that its easier said than done and that the game might have to be changed massively to obtain these features.... but thats what LFS is about... experiencing the closest thing to Real Life Racing.

"Yea, but your saying that the car isn't important.." NO! The car is one of the most important things in a Race Simulator. and the cars are fine the way they are, why add more stuff if no-one requested it?

For instance, people have been requesting the backfire effect while your downshifting, that would make LFS much more realistic, thats a good detail, and its not as hard, seeing that some people have accomplished it..

Hear the voices of the racers! and I'm sorry to those who think that I'm whining,complaining,flaming, and or wrong, but I feel that way...

Long Live LFS, For the Racers, for the Thrill, for the moments like:

[STI]Allen: WTF? Use your brakes damn it!
Und_Harley: SORRY! I was looking in the glove compartment :P
GlenXRacing: Lol!
[STI]Allen: Lol......

Keep the most important element alive: Fun,Excitement,and Determination to win!

BUT:


I see the other side as well, LFS is growing immensely, and even though there are alot of people flaming, surely at least we know people care and play :lfs:

LOL, I can't wait for LFS S3, and S2 Patch Y, despite the differences, WE all get accustomed to it... even if it means I have to hate some of the features, but I'm going to stay with LFS, because I met too many people, and I continue to meet more, and I cannot leave because of that.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Oh Fordman comes from Norfolk, just ingore him. Drives a 1.8 litre focus? Lies, I tell you! They don't even have roads in Norfolk!

Umm.. no... Don't be that way, everyone has the right to express their opinion, and thats just cruel of you...

if you don't like his post, YOU can ignore it, but don't be telling other people what to do!

sheesh, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can be a prick about it ......

LOL Your Sarcasm is extremely good, !! I didn't know you could go so far like that LOL!

Quote from CLRS530 :

@Fordman
Good post. I support you on every point!
So many people are crying for realism and flaming on every little "arcade thing". Scawen support them too much in some points in the past. We will have to see what the future brings. The clutch will be alleviated before the final patch comes out. I´m sure .

Bah, wrong. Scawen said today in the test patch forums the Clutch is as its going to be.

Everyone complaining in this thread obviously bought LFS with incorrect assumptions of what this product is... SCAVIER's vision of a racing simulator.

If you don't like LFS becoming more realistic on a whole by incorporating real life aspects of racing and driving, I am sorry for you. That said, it is Outrageous that you tell Scawen and co to Dumb down LFS to make you happy, while totally disenfranchising the true intended LFS audience.

Quote from Scawen :

I don't have any plans to make any changes to physics before Patch Y. Patch Y must be out this week so I've just got a couple of days to fix a few more bugs, so there are then another couple of days in final testing with no more changes other than crashes and showstopper fixes.

The clutch seems to work fine as most people agree, it's easy to drive with if you release the throttle when you change up gears. Real clutches don't have grip that massively exceeds the engine torque by great multiples, there is clutch slip if you release the clutch when road and engine speeds are greatly mismatched. And real clutches do overheat quickly as well. So no real problems. As I've said before the engine simulation needs a big improvement but at the moment the clutch modelling doesn't seem any worse than the engine modelling and does its job quite well.

Quote from srdsprinter :

Bah, wrong. Scawen said today in the test patch forums the Clutch is as its going to be.

Everyone complaining in this thread obviously bought LFS with incorrect assumptions of what this product is... SCAVIER's vision of a racing simulator.

If you don't like LFS becoming more realistic on a whole by incorporating real life aspects of racing and driving, I am sorry for you. That said, it is Outrageous that you tell Scawen and co to Dumb down LFS to make you happy, while totally disenfranchising the true intended LFS audience.

<crossing arms>

Exactly. With this patch we will probably lose about....I say 15% of the racers at the very most, and probably gain back nearly 30% when the FBM becomes more widely known next year.

I, for one, am very excited about the future of Live For Speed. Sadly, people naturally dwell on the negative and dismiss the positive.

Quote from UruNico2641 :

Umm.. no... Don't be that way, everyone has the right to express their opinion, and thats just cruel of you...

if you don't like his post, YOU can ignore it, but don't be telling other people what to do!

sheesh, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can be a prick about it ......

:shhh: Mr. Smith was being sarcastic. And an accomplished smartass he is!

Quote from jayhawk :

:shhh: Mr. Smith was being sarcastic. And an accomplished smartass he is!

LOL I'm guessing thats why he's one of the Moderators lol.....

I'm joking, but yea, I didn't know he was being sarcastic, and I'm sorry I assumed that he was being a prick

Quote from srdsprinter :

Everyone complaining in this thread obviously bought LFS with incorrect assumptions of what this product is... SCAVIER's vision of a racing simulator.

Everytime the same "bla bla bla" (Sorry for those sort of words). You can NEVER feel friving on PC like driving in a (race)car. So a racing simulation has many limits. Driving a car makes much fun because of many parameters. You cannot have many of them in front of your computer. Because of that you have to lower one's sights. One of those is the a way to fast overheating clutch. If I drive in a normal way (ok keyboard) and have manual shifting enabled I overheat it. Whats that. Fun? No for me. I only wanted to write my arguments but I won´t come back to this topic because discussing those points with this community is only frustration.

I think one of the main issues many seem to be struggling with is that it's the devs choice.

It's like when Pearl jam released No Code... I recall many fans being a bit disappointed because PJ were doing something completely different to what they were used to. but at the end of the day PJ were in it for PJ...

It's the same with LFS. If the devs weren't developing it like they are now they WOULDN'T HAVE STARTED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

LFS only exists because of the vision they had at that start.
What you are starting to get now is a result of that vision... so to complain is just bizarre in my opinion.

Of course you have the right to be disappointed, but really its not down to you. And you have unfortunately misunderstood what LFS is.

I do hope the devs continue to do what they want, and now be too downhearted with comments like 'it's too realistic'... because once they go against what appears to be their own principle of delivering the most accurate sim possible, that's when you will see the demise of LFS.

I do hope they keep the faith!

Quote from UruNico2641 :

.....I remember back in September everything was fine, but somethings not right, and something tells me that its Too much focus on the cars, and less interest on the ambience of LFS.

You obviously have no understanding of the results from the new car. The new car allowed further development in the gearbox simulation. It allowed further development in all of LFS because of the real experience that Scawen received from testing the car for real.

@ Intrepid

My general, non-targeted (yet thoroughly on-topic) comment:

Only those who have specific expectations get disappointed. Of course, if someone (e.g. Scavier) led you to those expectations by promising specific things and then didn't deliver them, you'd have every right to feel disappointed. AFAIK Scavier haven't ever done that. On the rare occasion they do tell you what's coming they actually deliver it. However long they take or in what form, I always appreciate the changes in LFS, especially the ones the hurt the "arcadey" crowd by making things harder, but I suppose I'm a bit bloody-minded in that way

I've found it helps, with any game I like that's progressing & evolving, either through development or third-party modification, if I just go with it and try not to second-guess what's coming next or place expectations on peoples' shoulders that I have no reason in holding After [insert long time here] of following the lengthy (yet ultimately awesome) GPL Mod process and the highly frustrating nK Pro un-progress it's a lesson I've learned in spades, shovels and a couple of full Kelso wheelbarrows.

This forum is going down shit creek.

Someone disagrees with the new patch and you get a gang of forum mafia come to tell you otherwise, the best bit is when they go ahead and start their own faction.

For those unaware the thread is titled Join the "We're glad LFS is harder and more realistic now" club

I'll also add that I also dislike the new patch but I'll give it a go and see where it takes me, for comparison purposes I have also got myself a copy of GPL and have been playing that for the last two nights. Its very different and pretty hardcore, I'm almost certain the majority of the LFS "realism faction" would struggle immensely with it.

I don't think it's a faction Rooble I think the "We're glad Lfs is more difficult" thread was a light-hearted response to the large number of threads that popped up within hours of the patch release, complaining about some stuff and wanting other stuff back While that thread seems quite popular (which seems to represent a large portion of LFS players who like the new changes, btw) I think it's blowing it a bit out of proportion to call disagreements over the new patch factionalism! There always have been and probably always will be disagreements over every new LFS patch and I don't think this latest batch of disagreements is anything new. I recall all the fuss some people made in the past about various patch inclusions such as the reducing in steering lock, new tyre behaviour, damage, paying for hi-res skins, forced cockpit view as a server option, clutch pack updates and so on and all that crap died down after a short while and people got on with what we're all here for (racing FYI ) without leaving a divided community. Some people are better at voicing their disagreements better than others though, no doubt about that

Simply, I guess the devs know what their vision is better than we can guess and they know how to get there better than we can imagine. LFS is going to keep changing, probably in ways that many of us can't imagine just now. The fact that some people will accept changes in their stride and some will resist them is just human nature. Whatever makes this game better reflect reality is ok by me.

Quote from axus :

You want the revs to have matched by the time you release the clutch to keep clutch slip to a minimum.

That's the thing... I have a DFP, and I use autoclutch, have to... Before, I had the blip on downshift on and cut on upshift OFF. I always lifted, and even turned off blip on cars like the XRG, in which I could actualy do it right withought a pedal. But I just COULD not drive with the blip on downshift off, not before, not now with the test patch. I TRY, really hard, to downshift, and I even have the motion down from doing it in real life, yet the car just refuses to shift down for me, because the autoclutch SUCKS withought the blip function. Now, if I try the button clutch, it works better than auto, but it still doesnt do the experience justice. Hence, please bring back blip on downshift! I beg you guys! A lot of us with the non-g25 wheel just cant race like this!

Also, I'm using 720/540/450 degrees rotation on the cars, and dont cheat, so please dont tell me about the unfair advatage, ok? IN sim racing, this is a factor that people will just have to deal with, untill 90% of the S2 racers have a clutch pedal setup, which wont happen for a while...

Also, on the previous patches, like forced cockpit view, better tire behaviour, and the rest, I always agreed on the chages, party because I already preferred it like this, or because I thought it made sense. Now, I find myself on the other side of the fence...

I think the reason over these arguments, is the fact that someone who has a clutch/shifter setup will never understand the big deal, why people are disagreeing with this new patch, unlike a person who is having a ton of trouble with it. Hence, the whole thing gets biased into 50/50... which sucks.

IMO, If I had a G25, I would probably be all over this new patch, and also not say a word about it sucking, because I would have already been doing it like this, so there was no real change for me... BUT, this is not the case. =[

I know what you are saying,because o felt this too for 2 days. Let me explain:Im racing with lfs since 2004,i always loved it!every since we got some updates wich always changed lfs a bit,and had to practice with it a bit more.Now when x30 came out,i had my worst day in lfs ever,coz i honestly couldnt make 1 lap around a track(any car) i was messing with setup,but than my tires were flat in the 2nd lap.. I was online for 7 hours without any luck,i was so pissed i was like f* this patch.. But honestly today i had my best race ever in my entire life!All i needed is concentracion and lot of practice,with a good setup.From now,lfs is the same,the best,the real,the fun real simulator for me

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Originally Posted by danowat:
It's horse's for course's fella, some people get "hard" for max realism, and find it fun, it leaves others cold, which is why some people (me included) are more than happy to sit the in front of a Tupolev TU-154 panel with a huge manual in front of me, and just press buttons for hours on end trying to get the damn thing to start.

You have good taste in airplanes! That is one of the most comfortable russian mid size passenger jets. I miss aeroflot's flights from Archangelsk to Moscow on that thing! Now, a train ticket for 2 is the same price as a ticket for 1 person for the airline, and I like the train better as well.

EDIT: sorry for off topic.

Quote from Fordman :

Dont take it the wrong way, but i have never dissed LFS, as I said LFS is my life, and it cost me my life (friends will know this)

But you have to imagine, there is people out there, that want to pick up and have fun, noobies, i.e me, and not worry about forced views, or clutch overheating, just race for 1hr per day if that, and what LFS used to have, it has lost in the search to be the best ( which is it ) online REAL simulation. It used to be the best of both worlds, real, but easy to pick up.

Now taking into consideration, I am a hardened LFS fan, its got way would (as I see it).

If I wanted realism to that effect, I would jump in my own car, and do a track day, or pay for racing license and go for it. Computers, games, simulations are ment to be fun, a realise, time away from the norm.

LFS is the best on the market for (realism) it truley is, but for fun, sorry, with the pressure of uba realism, lacks the fun.

As I said, I am not slating the progression line that the devs have taken, I am only voicing my opinion from a LFS driver from the way early days, and how times have changed, and for me, for the worse.

Sorry if we beg to differ, but thats personal opinions i guess

I think the community might need to help noobs more. I will still take the time out and watch people drive and give pointers. Something I remember you did for me years ago in S1 days when I was trying to get to grips with the FXO on some FE track.

People have said this patch is harder but for me I have not noticed really. I have always driven in LFS as I would expect to IRL so have never had to change my technique at all when each patch came out. I might not be the fastest BUT I make up in consistency and mechanical sympathy, the later is starting to pay dividends for me now

For me, realism is fun, and I'm in the same boat as the Kiwi above this post. I've never been 'fast', but would rather have to drive it like I owned it. Races used to be about braking and steering only. There's much more to motor sport than just these 2 things.

The more realistic LFS becomes, the happier I will be. Obviously not everyone is aboard this boat but frankly the Devs were always headed this way. It's just now that we're starting to see the effects.

Quote from UruNico2641 :

The car is one of the most important things in a Race Simulator. and the cars are fine the way they are, why add more stuff if no-one requested it?

So simulating different components of a car is a bad idea? What would you count as needed and what would be unnecessary. I get your point, but do you understand, you can't simulate a car if you decide not to simulate one or two aspects of a car/physics?

Quote from Rooble :

This forum is going down shit creek.

Someone disagrees with the new patch and you get a gang of forum mafia come to tell you otherwise, the best bit is when they go ahead and start their own faction.

For those unaware the thread is titled Join the "We're glad LFS is harder and more realistic now" club

I'll also add that I also dislike the new patch but I'll give it a go and see where it takes me, for comparison purposes I have also got myself a copy of GPL and have been playing that for the last two nights. Its very different and pretty hardcore, I'm almost certain the majority of the LFS "realism faction" would struggle immensely with it.

I like GPL, I drove it with keyboard before got wheel Too bad time has quite badly drove over from it

If all just agrees and stays in their own corner with their opinions, it would not be much of discussion forum, would it?

Quote from Shotglass :

Lately and not so lately LFS started to feel like a mystery TV show in that it always brings up new ideas without leading any of the several earlier subplots to a conclusion. This works fine for something like the X-Files or Lost, for a racing sim however its quickly gets annoying to have to deal with the same flawed collision detection for 2 1/2 years while new features keep comming that arent fully though through either.

^^I agrees fully. Shotglass really sums up what's up with LFS today.
---

LFS is still dead easy to drive and hotlap. Take GPL for a drive: Suddenly there are no minimaps and fullblown telemetry for tire and clutch temps. Mishift and you can blow your engine instead of seeing a bar raise on your F19/10. People are so used to everthing being so easy and controlled in LFS that even a tiny change, like the clutch tweak, can force them out from their comfort zones and flip.

From my pov, nk pro did lots of thing right with its approach. Sadly it was buggy and now dead

LFS is aimless and out of focus. Remember the thread?

Considering the LFS audience consists of anything between hardcore full blown cockpit and H shifter users to the casual keyboard/mouse player, I see no reason why LFS can't be made suitable for all.

I'm sure with the correct approach you could have, I dunno, a few game modes with some driving aids at the cost of some added weight or something.

I'm quite sure that this would be benificial from an economic point of view. As mentioned in another thread though; LFS is no democracy; the devs have their vision. I'm happy it involves more realism but I could see their need to sell copies eventually leading to a system where anyone from casual arcade players to hardcore simmers could have their way..

I had a friend who never plays games (but is into cars) try out LFS yesterday. He's a mercedes-guy so he didnt like my manual clutch setup and switched to automatic.. He did some rounds in various cars and usually didnt go many rounds without crashing into something.. but from the looks on his face and his comments he had a lot of fun. First time with LFS (or with any car game since test drive back in the '80..

LMAO @ people winging on about having a "hardcore mode" and wanting the game harder, and then winging on because its to dam hard to play anymore


muppets!!! LOL