Oh no,.. LFS is a RELIGION, and the holy triad are our gods.
God Scawen and his left and right-hand Gods.
Pray to them daily, as you would the FPS Gods.
And on the first corner of the first race of the first hour of the day, let one of your opponents go past as a worthy sacrifice to our Gods.
In what way is 70º or any other arbitrary angle less realistic than 90º?
If your eyeballs were fixed rigidly in your head and could look straight forward, them maybe you would have point, but that's not how looking works....
I just don't get how folks seem to be thinking only about how far you could or would physically turn your head... what about moving your eyes and the extra peripheral vision that you get in real life but don't with a pc monitor ?
It's true that without names over the cars, in some of the open wheelers, 90º doesn't give much advantage over 45º (only for those of us who have internalized the 90º system), but there's so much more to LFS than FBM and BF1.
I have stated and restated my thoughts about visual range and perception - how 90º look gives back what lack of peripheral vision takes away, and yet all those folks who are against re-introducing 90º look don't seem willing to address those ideas - instead we get
"Cant beileve people actually complain over this ? dont you have a dog to walk, or do xmas shopping, or bike to ride ?"
I can't believe people actually make posts like this ? don't you have a relevant point to make, or an opinion of your own? don't you ever react if someone takes away something you like ?
and
"How about if we'd make a compromise for about 60 degrees of sidelook to stop the whining and constant cries of 'BWAAAA I'M QUITTING NOW' only to see their online status at racing some server happily."
I don't remember reading any cries of 'BWAAAA I'M QUITTING NOW' in the threads that include this discussion... maybe you are confusing it with the cut/blip threads? I don't hear much whining either, just reasoned arguments supporting a valid opinion about An lfs feature - in fact you seem to be doing as much whining as anyone else here
So come on folks lets hear some good reasons why instant on-button 90º look is wrong for LFS! (preferably reasons that haven't already been refuted)
Why shouldn't those many drivers who use it be allowed to continue using it (in it's original form not this hobbled two button nonsense)?
What is it about my argument that is hard to understand? or alternatively, why is it not valid?
(you know, the one about a real life 30º head turn giving the same perceptual info as a 90º 'look' in LFS - therefor we should keep instant one-button 90º)
The reason why 180° was removed is clear I think, why we have only 0->45->90 degree look probably comes down to Scawen saving the time/space to include yet another option. The reason 45° itself was introduced in the first place is very likely that it's the only way you can actually check the formula mirrors without using a ridiculous FOV. I doubt anyone here would have a problem if an instant 90° look option was introduced
Assuming you can move your head about 45 degrees, which I think is still pretty optimistic with all the modern safety equipment I'd have thought about 70 degrees would take into account your ability to move your eyes, given the fact that it's greatly limited by a helmet. I'm not suggesting that LFS has to follow this and that 90 degrees look wasn't nice although totally unrealistic.
There are 4 types of community members here in the LFS community.
1. Those of us who call and speak of Scawen as if he is our god. It is done in humor
2. Those of us who seems to think Scawen is a god and think that we must not speak against anything he says or does or codes. His way is the only way and you must worship him when he speaks or implements a code no matter what.
3. Those of us who see and test a new feature and have suggestions or ideas that may benefit LFS and the way it is designed.
4. Those of us who don't like anything implemented to attempt to improve LFS and immediately come on the forum for the said complaining and whining.
...........
Not many are complaining and whining about the 45/90 look. Many give constructive criticism about the control method of the side look. Others whine about how looking 90 degrees is falsely unrealistic. Those whining about how the look is unrealistic are the same who are complaining about people whining about it being changed.
All we would like to see is a small change in the controller interface to make it easier and less cumbersome to use. Simple as that. No whining and no complaining. It is called feedback.
Strap yourself into a racing seat with five-point harness, full helmet and post a video of yourself turning your head more than 45 degrees.
Unless patch Y (or Z) doesn't deliver updated cockpits with proper racing seatbelts, bucket seats and neck support, my argument goes out of the window.
Please read my post - then read it again, maybe you will then understand that I totally agree that even 45º of head turn would be silly!
As I keep stating, the extra visual angle you get from moving your eyeballs and from your extra peripheral vision makes 90º look about right....
ITS NOT ABOUT 90º OF PHYSICAL HEAD TURN Its about seeing as much at the side of your car in LFS as you would by turning your head a little and using your eyes and peripheral vision in real life.
I can't believe that you really read my post and really didn't get this!
I don't get why the devs would develop any further
Person 1:
'Gimme improvements pl0x!!!'
Person 1 when there is an improvement:
'bak 2 0ld pl0x, ktxbai!!!'
my answer is:
stop whining, pl0x. (I don't mean to be rude)
Im glad that theres some real discussion going on about this too, to me.. well.. i guess i need to explain a bit.
Im rather experienced simracer, doing it for very long. Well. One of the things that has always bothered me with many games.. is the lack of 90 degree view on the sides, and in general.. lack of options in configuring the game. Now that ive played LFS for a while, i cant think even describe how big improvement the look keys is compared to simply any other sim. In quarter of a second i can easily check what is happening around the car. It definitely helps racing close, and what most important safe. Ive never been an elitist searching for the ultimate realism, its impossible as long as controllers have pedals that brake with range and not pressure, and as said with monitors of today it will hardly be realistic. It may resemble the real thing, the physics can get close.. but no way its immersive enough ever for me to become a purist about ridiculous details. therefore like i said before what matters is safety and conveniency. About the other stuff in the patch.. i do like
I'm with col, too. He totally sums it up. What we can see in LFS shouldn't be limited to what you'd see through a camera with the same fov strapped to your helmet in real-life.
I'm all for every measure which makes the whole spatial awareness thing less constrained by the fact that we're for the most part only using monitors.
Since you pulled the peripheral vision into the discussion...
The head does indeed turn 90 degrees in LFS and then you get even more unnaturally perfect and clear peripheral vision due to (usually) unnaturally high FOV angles people are using to compensate for the relatively small monitors.
Since we cannot simulate human sight's natural drawbacks - such as very small center area of clear vision - and I guess most of us would not want to see visual aids (for example, dots on edge of screen to emulate peripheral vision), I says it's best to limit head turn degrees to somewhere between 45-65 degrees as very high FOVs have become industry standards.
Yes, I did pull all of the degrees out of my ass and since I'm clearly trolling instead of pointing out some illogical things about your statement you are free to keep slapping your forehead. Thank you for your cooperation.
To what gain? Triple widescreen system needs quite different fov than single 4:3 screen with skittish christmas decorations on the sides. All that being said we can't simulate none of the good sides of human vision either. No matter how much christmas decorations you have installed on your monitor. (take that Jägermeister badge off, at least)
The removal of 180 degrees was a good decision. I used that view a lot but removing it is all good. An option of 45 degrees is good too but for me it is physically quite challenging to press both look buttons quickly enough to get that fast glance to my side. Another thing that is a bit of mystery to me why the 45 look is forced to two buttons but there is still the middle virtual back mirror whatever-it-is-called available for all cars. If you wasnted to do the whole view update properly you would remove that as well...
Just because something is changed it doesn't mean that it is right or ultimately correct, even with lfs and I hope the devs re-evaluate the view thing.
EDIT: at least it is still possible to make the 90 degree glance by some inventive rewiring of the electronics in your wheel. I could live with the 45 degrees even if you could hear a car next to you, but ... you can't. Or I can't.
No, I still don't think you're getting what col and sinbad are saying, which I also agree with. Who says that everyone is running with unnaturally high FOVs? Or are we back to the comically stupid analogy of looking out your room window and not being able to see what is to each side (i.e. you think 20° is a realistic FOV)?
In real life, unobscured, we have about 180° of vision whilst looking straight ahead. Keeping the head still, and just moving our eyes, gives us even greater range. My vacuum cleaner is sat behind and to the left of my chair right now, about 120° from the straight ahead. Moving my eyes full left, I can see this in my peripheral vision. So even without moving my head at all, I have about 240° of spatial awareness around me. We wouldn't have evolved very well if we had f*** all idea what was around us.
Naturally, a helmet obscures our field of view. I haven't worn a helmet recently, but from what I can vaguely picture, the FOV would still be well in excess of 100°. And that's with a closed face helmet. An open face (which could be worn in the tin-tops) would give far far greater FOV.
Now, your claim that a full 90° head turn in LFS gives an unrealistically good look to each side is therefore wrong, because even with a 90° neck turn in LFS you still don't get the peripheral vision that would be afforded if you twisted your head that far IRL. Why is this concept so difficult to understand? Unless you're running some monster triple screen system, your FOV will still be less than it would be IRL, which is why the 90° is about right to compensate for that loss of peripheral vision to the sides.
And what's more, if the 90° is so unrealistic, why aren't you pushing equally as vociferously for it to be removed altogether? The view is still there, it's just the controls that need refining or reverting to the older system as some of us can't use it. Just because something becomes a pain in the arse or is arbitrarily restricted doesn't make it more realistic.
What if you could decide how many degrees you'd want to look sideways, by a setting? Those who want 90 could have it, and those who want less could have that as well.
omg all this whining is really starting to make me sick!
it took me about 3 minutes to get used to the 45* look, and I LOVE IT! now i can do something i could never do before, and that's look at the car next to me, and still be able to see up the road where we are headed.
of course the significance of that is that there will be fewer crashes with 45* than with 90*, because you can still see where you are going! plus you can still look 90* if you need to by using both buttons. will anyone really miss 180*? the only time i ever used it was when i was stuck in the gravel, but even then i only used it because i could; i didn't really need it.
LFS folk are often concerned primairily with two things when it comes to any feature (and understandably so):
1. Is it realistic?
2. Does it give an unnatural or unfair advantage when racing?
Well, looking to the left or right is obviously realistic, so it's really just a question of figuring out how, and to what extent, LFS should allow it. Maybe the only concession here, might be some sort of extra allowance for the loss of peripheral vision.
When it comes to an unnatural or unfair advantage, I can't think of one off the top of my head (although I do stand to be corrected here, of course ).
Looking left or right is used (primairily) to check for other cars in close proximity in order to avoid a collision, or to check for traffic when moving onto the circuit. Both of these are passive, defensive moves which are for the benefit of others too.
In fact, for me, looking to either side is a pain, because I'm looking away from the direction of travel, albeit only for a second or two, which could potentially cause an unforced error. But in the absence of real peripheral vision, or maybe three monitors (are you listening, Santa ) I think it's the best we can do.
I`m more than happy with the new view system. For the first time ever I`ve been able to view the side mirrors in all cars, and use them for their purpose without having to set a FOV that looks like i`m sitting in the back seat.
I think for everyone to be happy, there definitely should be a "Side View Angle = XX degrees" option. I`ll still be happy using the 45/90 atm tho.
I use a FOV of 64deg. I know many run 90+ but for me this distorts the view too much for a race game. Because I use a more restrictive FOV the ability to look around becomes more vital.
Since the change I have seen more crashes and contact on the approach to corners. Not just myself but you see it ahead as well. People come up the inside but the 45deg does not give enough view so a pileup happens.
I don't know about the rest of you but if I look forwards I am aware of movement past 90degs left and right. Granted, at the extremes you are noy aware of detail BUT you are aware of movement.
So while you might not be able to turn your head more IRL due to safety kit you can see more. In LFS not all of us run 3 screen configs.
Same thing. From the other thread (there already 3 threads about this subject, link and link, how about merging?) I found MouseLook and understood 90 deg view would be possible to achieve with that. Not yet tested though.
I agree that 45° is really good for checking mirrors, anymore no need for the virtual behind view mirror (to save some fps). After I think about this, I have somehow wanted this long time ago, in corners it's also useful. But in situations where you need to check what's on your side and see 90°, you really don't have time to press two buttons.
People who seem to think that we had "too good" vision while playing with the 90° view mode when compared to real life, must be sitting in a real car with a paperbag in their heads?
I hope that Scawen just kind of accidentally made this happen: he though we need 45° view to see out of the FBMW, he added that and thought I make it simplified with this hold-two-buttons mode, but forgot that it has few downsides... at least I hope so. If it was removed on purpose because it was "unrealistic" then I'm lost: if I'd start neutralizing unrealistic things, certain other things (starting from the F9/F10 view) would be on top of my list.
What people have been trying to say is that in a race car (especially these days with the HANS device around your neck and helmet on your head), it is hard to turn your head much at all. The 90 degree view would be difficult if not impossible to achieve. Furthermore, in an open-wheeler car the view can be further restricted by the cockpit. However the current spout of complaints make little sense (in most cases) since 90 degree view is still available.
Pushing the two buttons takes only a fraction of a second. While some people use controllers that makes this more difficult, such controllers are ill-suited to LFS in the first place and require some compromise anyway.
The new system solves a very old and annoying problem of not being able to use the side mirrors properly. The 45 degree view is useful in all cars and the 90 degree view still exists too. The rear view has gone and that's no big deal (though I used to use it regularly for a quick peek behind after looking left or right) and will hardly be missed.
One thing is for sure: bitching and moaning about changes won't get you very far. If you can't make a valid, sensible and polite argument for your case you won't gather much support. A petition is a waste of time, as petitions usually are. Insulting people who don't necessarily promote your view is also a waste of time. Hostility is no way forward, even if has been hatched from genuine frustration.
If you can't make a civilized case you're only harming your cause.
