The online racing simulator
Point System Loopholes?
(53 posts, started )
#1 - migf1
Point System Loopholes?
Hi everybody,

I was wondering if the current OLFSL point system is individual oriented or team oriented? Actually I was wondering if it is oriented at all to any direction, because I think there are some pretty big logical loopholes.

[edited]Since the latest changes, the Team Standings are calculated based on the total number of a team's racers throughout the season (the sum of their individual points are divided by the total number of the team racers ever participated in any race throughout the season).

At a first glance this seems to have been introduced in order to... punish "Did Not Show" cases. But it also introduces unwanted side-effects.

For example, what if just before the last race of the season a team "decides" to delete from its member list those racers who hurt the team's points, keeping only those members who run consistently throughout the season. This would automatically push the team towards the top of the Team Standings table.

Another example, imagine a team with 2 devoted racers who run consistently every race of the season. But let's say one time, one of them gets sick. With the current point system the only option for that team is to run with just one racer, instead of using a substitute racer for their second car. Because if they use a substitute racer for that one race, then at the end of the season their Team Points will be really screwed up (the amount of their points will be divided by 3 racers, instead of 2 racers) and this really sucks since the 3d racer's points will be 0 for all races except one. [edited]

[edited]

Another problem arises when a racer changes teams.

Actually the philosophy behind any point system on any league gets down to really one basic question: who we want and who we don't want to our league (to be more polished, who we'd like to attract and who we don't).

The OLFSL has built the reputation of an open league to anyone, experienced or not. Obviously in the beginning it was individual oriented, but as time passes more and more organized teams seem to get developed around LFS. At the same time OLFSL also evolves and attracts more and more racers every new season.

[edited]As long as a team can guarantee (let's say) 3 to 5 racers in any race, this should satisfy any open league's need for participations, without examining which racers of the particular team participate in every race. [edited]

If you think a bit more the recent change in the way the Team Standings are calculated, you'd see that what it really does is to punish teams with a lot of members, such as GVR, SC, FFRT and 1st Racing. But these teams guarantee a noticable minimum of participations in every race (and of course it's never wise to dramatically change a rule mid-season).

As far as I am concerned, I strongly beleive that the OLFSL point system shoud be re-orginized being more team-oriented, because organized teams is the healthy future of any sim-league (or any sim in general). This doesn't mean that individual entries should be discouraged, on the contrary.

So for a start, my suggestion would be to switch back to the previous way of calculating Team Standins, by dividing the sum of points by the number of only those team-racers who actually paricipated each race individually.

I would be happy to hear other people's opinion on this matter. The more the better!

Thanks for listening and sorry for the long post.
yes.. because sometimes, some of our team members can't race because they have a life.. and the team should be penalized becuse of that? that doesn't seem to fair for me.. i agree with migf1. total points dividing by the number of members that raced..
Quote from migf1 :Also, if you think a bit more the recent change in the way the Team Standings are calculated, you'd see that what it really does is to punish teams with a lot of members, such as GVR, SC, FFRT and 1st Racing. But these teams guarantee a noticable minimium of participations in every race. (and of course it's never wise to dramatically change a rule mid-season).

Funny, I sent an e-mail to the appeals arbiter yesterday, objecting against the change in team points calculation while the season is still running.

Got a reply saying the OLFSL staff will look into it and let me know when something's decided.

Anyway, good to hear I'm not the only one
I dunno - we're over halfway through the season now - why not suggest points system for next season?
Quote from russraine :I dunno - we're over halfway through the season now - why not suggest points system for next season?

Hehe, that's my point, if we're halfway through the season, then why the sudden rule change in team points calculation?
exactly.. that doesn't make much sense does it?
#7 - migf1
Russ, hopefully the OLFSL team will reconsider the point system for the next season, making it a bit more fair for both team and individual entries.

For this season, I have to agree with the other guys who want the Team Standings back to the previous way of calclulation. Not only because it dramatically changed the given data mid-season, but also because I really think it was more fair and logical.

[edited]

And I'm pretty sure there are other issues that need to be discussed for the next season, but not now.
#8 - Tukko
Quote from migf1 :Unless I haven't understood it correctly, I think any individual racer missing the 20% of the total races gets 0 points at the end of the season in the Individual Standings.

Nope. From OLFSL rules:

"You can skip/miss 20% of the events per season. For example if there’s 10 events in total, you can miss 2. Points (even zero points) will then be removed from your total points. However, DNSH points can not be removed."

So you don't have to race in 80 % of all events, it just means that your 2 worst results will not count in final standings.
#9 - migf1
Quote from Tukko :Nope. From OLFSL rules:

"You can skip/miss 20% of the events per season. For example if there’s 10 events in total, you can miss 2. Points (even zero points) will then be removed from your total points. However, DNSH points can not be removed."

So you don't have to race in 80 % of all events, it just means that your 2 worst results will not count in final standings.

Thanks for clarifying that one Tukko (I had indeed misinterpreted that part of the Individual Standings).
OLFSL is open for both serious racers and racers who enter just for fun. HOWEVER, OLFSL IS a league. Signing up for any league season is a commitment. If you want to have a chance of winning the individual competetion you will have to enter every race. (Actually, your two worst results (including missed events) are excluded from the overall individual standings.)

You, as an individual may choose how serious you are about OLFSL.

And the same thing goes for teams. If you want your team to have a chance of winning the team championship, your team have to enter every race. If not all team members enter, then maybe your team simply isn't comitted enough.

Simply put: IMO, a point system should not favor individuals nor teams who doesn't take part.
Quote from felplacerad :OLFSL is open for both serious racers and racers who enter just for fun. HOWEVER, OLFSL IS a league. Signing up for any league season is a commitment. If you want to have a chance of winning the individual competetion you will have to enter every race. (Actually, your two worst results (including missed events) are excluded from the overall individual standings.)

You, as an individual may choose how serious you are about OLFSL.

And the same thing goes for teams. If you want your team to have a chance of winning the team championship, your team have to enter every race. If not all team members enter, them maybe your team simply isn't comitted enough.

Simply put: IMO, a point system should not favor individuals nor teams who doesn't take part.

Regarding the teams, is for example McLaren serious and commited to F1? Because last year they used 3 drivers, with De La Rosa replacing Montoya for a few races. With OLFSL's recent changes McLaren would have been "penalized" in the Constructors Standings, just because they used 3 drivers. Or do you know any real-life league, "penalizing" teams in the Team Standings for using many drivers?

Dont get me wrong, I'm not implying that OLFS and F1 is the same thing nor that OLFSL is the same with WTCC for example. But the point is that when you advertise an open league to everyone, experienced or not, it doesn't make sense to hurt teams that collectively and organized bring to the league racers of both categories.

Actually is a matter of compromizes for both parts (since we are talking about an open league to anyone). Closed leagues (like the F1 example above) simplify many things in that aspect.

For example there could be a requirement of a minimum AND maximum number of members that each team may has in OLFSL. If we want our league more "closed" then we can use tighter limits for the number of team-members and/or add the requirement that these members must be the same throughout the season. If we want our league more "open" then we use broader limits in the number of team-members and we don't care which of them participate in each race, as long as there are always between X to Y team-members present in each race.
Something like that allso helps teams to organize their internal procedure of selecting which of their members will represent the team in which league.

A "commited team" is a different term than a "commited individual". The more the teams' members (which is a good thing for LFS, to have organized schemes bringing newcomers to the sim) the biggest the difference between the terms

And of course ususally there's no logic in changing rules mid-season.
While I totally agree with all of the above, what struck me most as a really unfair, previously unseen (in real-life and virtual events) and (let's face it) bad decision is the decision to change the point system mid-season. It's unacceptable, to have a championship started one way, and then change the points recursively even for past races! I don't know how to put it mildly because it just is plain wrong...
The system was changed to better reflect the skill level of a teams membership as opposed to how many racers they have racing.

OLFSL has always listened to the membership in regrads to how the league is structured, points , stats, tracks, ect............and we will continue to do so.

All staff members are aware of these concerns, it's just that we have to get together to discuss this and that's not always the easiest thing to do.

The summer break is not far away, also Patch "X" will soon be out and with the "AUTO-UPDATE" feature some other changes are going to happen.

Staff members are hard at work coding to insure that we will have stats after patch "X" ( incase you were not aware Bob has said he will no longer update LFS STATS after "W17") and this is the priority issue ATM.

So, continue to race with the knowledge that your concerns have been noted and will be discussed.

Thanks again for racing in the OLFSL, you make this league what it is.

AAnt
As I am the one who made these changes, and brought it up with OLFSL staff I feel my reply should be registered here too.

Team standings were introduced as an extra feature during last season - merely for fun a lot like like national standings since we didn't then have that many teams and/or those we had didn't have large number of members. After that the way we count those points has been changed greatly many times, during season also - partly because we changed the individual pointing system too. Also, number of teams/team members has raised siqnificantly.

These facts and feedback from member(s) brough up the need to tweak the system we had when this season launched. Our meaning was not to punish teams with a lot of members, but as I wrote to the site - to give better picture of skill-level in team.

Anyway, as it's written above the matter will be discussed within OLFSL staff - and I will do some deeper research about using either members per event/per season to do the calculations. Meanwhile team standings will be closed.

And migf1, I'd appreciate if you could edit the first post so that it will not cause further misunderstandings about this "20% rule". Thank you.
Quote from varjsa-9 :
[snip]
Our meaning was not to punish teams with a lot of members, but as I wrote to the site - to give better picture of skill-level in team.

I don't doubt the intention, varisa. The side-effects are what trouble me.

Quote :[snip]
Meanwhile team standings will be closed.

That's a pitty
Couldn't we just switch back to the previous method of calculations? I don't really see any drawbacks to that method.

Quote :And migf1, I'd appreciate if you could edit the first post so that it will not cause further misunderstandings about this "20% rule". Thank you.

Done
I'd also like to stress the fact that I don't doubt the intention, at all.

Quote from migf1 :Couldn't we just switch back to the previous method of calculations? I don't really see any drawbacks to that method.

I'm all for that too. I mean, it's how we started the season, why not finish it like that? These suggestions should in my opinion be taken to next season's rules discussion.
By closing the team standings as such, you're taking away a lot of fun for our team and it's members.
just here to say.. if you keep this system, please change our team members to 8, because we're 8.. not 9 like it says in the website..
Quote from varjsa-9 :

Anyway, as it's written above the matter will be discussed within OLFSL staff - and I will do some deeper research about using either members per event/per season to do the calculations. Meanwhile team standings will be closed.


Reading the above posts and seeing some very good points made i would like to suggest something if i may.

Why not use similar kind of calculation as in the national standings, seems to me everybody are pretty happy about that system. And that way some drivers could be absent and not affect majorly to the whole points the team gets. So take account the whole number of team members, then X percent from that and use that amount of racers to calculate the average points a team gets from an event. Like this the whole team doesent need to be present to every race, but it still is good to be present to ensure stabile points from each event.

So for an example if a team has 6 members you could take acount for every event only the 4 best of these. In case there are less then 4 participants in an event for the team their points still get divided by 4.

So just an idea....
Quote from Rocabiliz :yes.. because sometimes, some of our team members can't race because they have a life.. and the team should be penalized becuse of that? that doesn't seem to fair for me.. i agree with migf1. total points dividing by the number of members that raced..

Hi

Same here!!

Btw, when racers/teams enter OLFSL they've seen the rules ( Probably), and also probably saw the Team possibilities or possible strategy, regarding the actual nº of team drivers racing on each event.
Our team has 8 drivers, and like everyone they have a life besides LFS, and since in the rules didn´t said nothing about each team member obligation to race on every event, a lot of teams didn´t saw any problems on using a high number of drivers.... now, after team members registered and half way of the season i really dont think is fair to change the rules like this.

Its a bit like we're in a game of cards, playing Poker, them in the midle of the game someone says.... " Oh, you thought we were playing poker?? na... we're playing Tarot."

Quote from FOX 1977 :Our team has 8 drivers, and like everyone they have a life besides LFS, and since in the rules didn´t said nothing about each team member obligation to race on every event...

There is no oblication to race every event - you can miss 2 (20% of season) events and still win the jackpot. I hate to tepeat myself, but the rules don't mention anything about obligatory participation.

And team standings will be re-opened once we make the decision...
Quote" Its a bit like we're in a game of cards, playing Poker, them in the midle of the game someone says.... " Oh, you thought we were playing poker?? na... we're playing Tarot."

You have no idea about how many requests we get in any given season to change this and change that.

We have the biggest racer data base of any league, it's takes the work of 6 dedi people, we have free servers......why....cause we're where it's at.....we invite any level player......any other league do that...not many.

Come on board and help us change it...but DON'T stand on the outskirts and throw rocks.

AAnt
yes it's quite impossible to change a system like this to suit everyone. I think FienDi has it all under control, once he see's there is a problem, he's already working at it before most of you start complaining about it, but it takes time. We've established that the point system is a bit unpopular, fine, it'll be looked at. Please leave it at that, we don't like to close threads but you know, if you act like babies we will do, will even take away some of your toys as well.
Who threw rocks? No one insulted the effort you all make for the fairest point system

but…

You change the team point system when 7 of the 12 events have already been done, and you expect that no one will argue with that?

I personally think that the new team point system is good.
If it was known from the beginning of the season every team would make their way according that…

We do not ask you to change now anything or put extra effort to anything…
You can easily keep it as it was and at the end of the season you decide a better point system for the next seasons.

There where some opinions stated on the above posts, no one acted like a baby
Quote from AtomAnt :Quote" Its a bit like we're in a game of cards, playing Poker, them in the midle of the game someone says.... " Oh, you thought we were playing poker?? na... we're playing Tarot."

You have no idea about how many requests we get in any given season to change this and change that.

We have the biggest racer data base of any league, it's takes the work of 6 dedi people, we have free servers......why....cause we're where it's at.....we invite any level player......any other league do that...not many.

Come on board and help us change it...but DON'T stand on the outskirts and throw rocks.

AAnt

I don't think i've done that or even anyone else...

russraine - " ...if you act like babies we will do, will even take away some of your toys as well. "

Now i have 2 questions...

1º what kind of threat is that?
2º with thoose answers, whos beeing a baby now?

Btw, now i WILL say it..... its is a ENORMOUS mistake to change rules after 7 of 12 events. ENORMOUS.

Cya, and try to understand the users, if you want respect.


Any way: Looks like the team standings are online again. Some kind of change has obviously been made again since positions has been swapped.

Edit: Now they're gone again.
Edit: Now they're back again with some additions.

Point System Loopholes?
(53 posts, started )
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