The online racing simulator
Quote from modenaf1 :The styling shouldn't have anything to do with it IMO, the fact is, the cars that are street cars should have street cars have. The cars that aren't street cars shouldn't have those things.

Road cars like XF and XR from 2006 probably would have ABS, and maybe TC. Road cars like XF and XR from the 80s or 90s probably wouldn't have ABS and almost certainly wouldn't have TC.
Unless you have another source on what period these cars are from, styling is our only clue.
No need for TC and ABS from my point of view. There are plenty of road going racing classes out there that don't allow TC and ABS from what I remember when my Dad did hill climbs. These things should never have been introduced into racing they just make it so much easier for the driver, look at ISI games with all the arcade aids. There are rarely any servers which don't allow these aids.

I have to agree with Sinbad. These cars are fictional, the devs can decide what features they come with or don't. I prefer them being as they are as it adds something extra to a race. You lock up a couple of times or are to harsh on the thorttle then you could struggle with your tyres. This aspect would be removed if we chucked some driving aids in. I always thought that TC and ABS were really extras in this country anyway. We've never owned a car with either TC or ABS.

Keiran
There is the fact that modern racing cars have quite a lot electronics in them today. All kinds of electronid widgets which would have been silly 20 or 30 years ago are big part of racing today.
Quote from sinbad :Road cars like XF and XR from 2006 probably would have ABS, and maybe TC. Road cars like XF and XR from the 80s or 90s probably wouldn't have ABS and almost certainly wouldn't have TC.
Unless you have another source on what period these cars are from, styling is our only clue.

A much much bigger clue is the lack of modern progressive turbocharging devices.

I'll say it again you do not want road ABS/TC it's the first thing that gets removed when you start preparing a car and never heads out onto the race track.
great idea mate traction control for mouse would me it more even with the wheel..
If I'd be given an option would I rather have ABS (or TC for that matter) fitted to my car, I would rather not. Having no ABS helps you stop quicker especially on slippery surfaces as long as you practice not to lock the brakes for too long. I've noticed ABS starts "cracking" way too early on snowy surfaces and won't allow you to put the maximum possible traction from the tires to the road.

ABS:s main function isn't to help you stop quicker in a straight line either, it's main goal is to maintain steerability when you slam the brakes in mid corner (god knows why you'd want to do that).

My S13 unfortunately has ABS fitted to it (as do all european models afaik) and I really hate it now that it's winter and roads are covered in snow. Been seriously giving a thought for converting it to non-ABS.
#57 - Vain
Tried removing the ABS-fuse? When it's spring you can put the fuse back again.

Vain
Quote from Matrixi :If I'd be given an option would I rather have ABS (or TC for that matter) fitted to my car, I would rather not. Having no ABS helps you stop quicker especially on slippery surfaces as long as you practice not to lock the brakes for too long. I've noticed ABS starts "cracking" way too early on snowy surfaces and won't allow you to put the maximum possible traction from the tires to the road.

ABS:s main function isn't to help you stop quicker in a straight line either, it's main goal is to maintain steerability when you slam the brakes in mid corner (god knows why you'd want to do that).

My S13 unfortunately has ABS fitted to it (as do all european models afaik) and I really hate it now that it's winter and roads are covered in snow. Been seriously giving a thought for converting it to non-ABS.

You'd never WANT to slam your brakes on mid corner, but if you saw a child standing in the middle of the road, would you REALLY at the time it matters have the presence of mind to cadence brake around them?

The one time I had a similar experience was coming round a blind corner (the same corner my brother had his accident a couple of years beforehand) only to find a queue of cars. Now, this is a quick corner, so I was doing about 65/70, nowhere near the limit. And suddenly I saw the stationary cars. The last car was in the middle of turning around, so was broadside to me. I jumped on the brakes, and locked up all four wheels. There were long black lines for about 50 meters, until something in my head said "cadance". At this rate I wasn't going to get to 30mph, let alone 0, so I'd have probably killed the lady in the broadside car. So I took my foot right off the brake, and started again. And again. And again. I stopped with about 8 inches to spare, and my girlfriend at the time next to me was already in tears. The lady in the other car looked so relieved. I had 'remembered' cadance braking at the last possible second. Who's to say next time you or I will be so lucky...

Edit: I'm still against TC and ABS, but I can see the value in them in certain circumstances, and with certain drivers (the vast majority of them actually). But I'd disable them as soon as I found out how.
Quote from Vain :Tried removing the ABS-fuse? When it's spring you can put the fuse back again.

Vain

I know that would do the trick, but it would also light up the ABS check light and whatnot. I prefer do it the old fashion way and install the non-ABS brake system, propably upgrading brake hoses to steel braided ones too while I'm at it.
#60 - Vain
The fuse-method has the advantage that you can put the fuse back on whenever you want. And obiously, in day-to-day-driving ABS can be helpfull .

Vain
The fuse method has a disadvantage - it's unlike the fuse operates JUST the ABS. So you might have to have no radio, or no wipers, or no lights whilst you have no ABS. Thats the price of cars and electrics I'm afraid - shared fuses.
#62 - Vain
I never tried the fuse method because all my cars never had ABS (first one '85 and later a '87), but I guess many cars have their electric system for the ABS secured from most other devices. If I engineered a car I'd rather put in a second fuse than having a short-wired windscreenwiper kill my ABS .
This of course depends on the specific car. Either try or get the electrical plan of the car.

Vain
Quote from tristancliffe :
The one time I had a similar experience was coming round a blind corner (the same corner my brother had his accident a couple of years beforehand) only to find a queue of cars. Now, this is a quick corner, so I was doing about 65/70, nowhere near the limit. And suddenly I saw the stationary cars. The last car was in the middle of turning around, so was broadside to me. I jumped on the brakes, and locked up all four wheels. There were long black lines for about 50 meters, until something in my head said "cadance". At this rate I wasn't going to get to 30mph, let alone 0, so I'd have probably killed the lady in the broadside car. So I took my foot right off the brake, and started again. And again. And again. I stopped with about 8 inches to spare, and my girlfriend at the time next to me was already in tears. The lady in the other car looked so relieved. I had 'remembered' cadance braking at the last possible second. Who's to say next time you or I will be so lucky...

Last summer I had a close call experience as well, it didn't involve any corners tho. I was driving my sister back home in my ex '87 Corolla, I was cruising about 80-85km/h on a motorway, weather was really bad as it had just stopped raining. All roads were wet and slippery as hell. So there I was minding my own business untill I see a blue Civic come in from a T-intersection, I thought "he has a triangle, he's suppose to watch out for other traffic when joining the motorway, no problemos for me" and to my surprise, the driver DIDN'T watch out for other traffic (me) and drove straight on to the motorway.

It took me a while to understand the situation and slam my foot on the brakes but once I did, the brakes naturally locked up since that old car didn't have ABS and the tires were as wide as pizza cutters and barely had any grip at all. I remember hearing the tires being locked and instinctly I let go off the brakes and slammed them again. I barely managed to miss the Civic, there was less than few meters of space between me and him. I was in quite a shock after that for a little while, since then I've started having lots of margin when people are joining the motorway
I just yesterday had a similar experience. I was going to buy some food from local supermarket and I was driving like 40-50kph what was the limit. I noticed a car coming to the next intersection from a gas station and I thought that she doesn't look like stopping (behind a triangle she was).

It was more like a hunch but I lifted my foot off the accelerator and pressed gently brakes just to notice that she pulled in front of me. Managed to to do some threshold braking (even my ABS didn't go on) and there was enough room for her to survive from it. The thing is that the road was dead slippery and if I had driven without braking I would have to use bus now But it was a close call. Not scary though
Quote from tristancliffe :...and my girlfriend at the time next to me was already in tears...

I have no right to intrude, but I couldn't help spotting this bit. Did she become no longer your girlfriend as a result of the incident?
No, she just isn't my girlfriend anymore
If i was writing a computer program that simulated driving different cars, implementing various
peculiarities from real cars such as abs and traction control would seem pretty natural.

Concerning lfs i personally wouldn't really care, if these things were implemented i'd probably just never try them
Not being a racing sim "purist" I have no problem with traction control, to compensate for the lack of forces felt by a real driver in a real car, epecially on the high powered rear wheel drive cars. ABS is OK, but then all of Scawens work on hot / flat spotting would go to waste.
ABS is a technology implemented as an electromechanical device. One could say that it is supposed to simulate cadence braking. Why would i want a simulation (in lfs) of the simulator of braking (abs)?
I don't see what all the fuss is about regarding assists. I'm not aware of anyong claiming that F-16 fighter pilots are panzy's because the F16 is a fly by wire aircraft with a large number of assists: stability control with sub-millisecond reaction time to keep the aircraft stable; automatic camber control (leading edge and trailing edges automatically adjusted for air speed and g loading); and the 9 g limiter on stick (elevator) inputs. Then there's those panzy radar, laser guided, and heat seeking missles.

Back to on topic, regarding ABS, computerized racing braking systems do more than just cadence braking on all 4 wheels. In the racing classes that allow it, independent computerized braking at each wheel is used for traction control, cornering assist, and braking.

Regarding traction control in general, Champ race cars don't have it, Formula 1 race cars do. The racing isn't any better, the only difference is you have more "incidents" with Champ cars, mostly a selling point for the fans.
#71 - Vain
We may talk about TC-like assists in F1 cars when we get F1 cars. But until then we don't have a car class where TC or ABS are usually allowed (I'm not sure about F3000, so please correct me if I'm wrong).
The thing is: When you want to take a XRT-like real-life car to racing, you'll need to go through a technical check. And when your car happens to have TC or ABS you won't be allowed to race until you remove both. So why should LFS cars be allowed to have TC or ABS?

Vain
Your analogy of racing vehicles with fighter aircrafts is flawed.

In racing there is a set of rules, to which all willing to participate, must adhere. If in a racing event, driving assists are allowed, they are allowed. If they are not allowed, they are not allowed. It is up to whoever organizes said racing event.

In fighter aircrafts you do what you can to shoot down the opponent. There are no "rules", per se.

I do not wish for driving assists, because (it might just be me) i think they show lack of skill on behalf of the driver. Power steering, traction control, electronic braking, auto shifting... what next? NFS?

Remove ALL assists. Let the pure best driver win.
Quote from george_tsiros :Your analogy of racing vehicles with fighter aircrafts is flawed.

In racing there is a set of rules, to which all willing to participate, must adhere. If in a racing event, driving assists are allowed, they are allowed. If they are not allowed, they are not allowed. It is up to whoever organizes said racing event.

In fighter aircrafts you do what you can to shoot down the opponent. There are no "rules", per se.

I do not wish for driving assists, because (it might just be me) i think they show lack of skill on behalf of the driver. Power steering, traction control, electronic braking, auto shifting... what next? NFS?

Remove ALL assists. Let the pure best driver win.

Well no the same can be said of modern fighter's compared to WW2 aircraft... i.e. dogfighting skills are rarely needed in modern warfare and the seat of pants flying and skill needed to fly WW2 fighters is a totally different realm to modern fighters, purists would argue for WW2 over modern fighters in a sim and would think modern fighter pilots are panzies , but others would say both are valid it's just what floats your boat I guess I'm more of a purist and prefer no assists
George is right, that example was indeed flawed. From what I know, it's impossible to fly modern fighters just by feel, because they are very unstable with the intention to increase their maneuverability. In racing it's about fair driving and sportsmanship, in air combat it's about who comes out alive. You cannot compare that.
#75 - Vain
....On the demoservers you can. It's about who's not wrecked at the end of the race.

Vain

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