I'd like to see a bit of randomness introduced to the AI during race start. When the light goes green, all the AIs jump off the line at the same time and with the same acceleration. Instead, pick a random number from .05 to .250 for each AI. This number will be the number of milliseconds the AI waits when the light goes green. This should better simulate a human response and also add a bit more realism to the "T1 Drag Race".

No need for such improvements on AI side. LFS is really not a singleplayer game, and i dont think there are too many players who actually have fun racing AI cars. They are slow, they r dumb and they are not up to date. If they were, maybe it would be worth doing. LFS has more important problems/things to be corrected/done rather than messing with the AI.

Quote from RevengeR :

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im sorry but what a load of bs.
of course the real fun is in multiplayer, but a lot ppl (including me) do drive from time to time singleplayer against AI (whyever) and it would be nice to have decent AI (more human like) to race with.
actually, i dont think there are much more important things to do, dont forget the AI is still from S1.

+1 for any AI improvements. And when the AI DO get improved, yes, random starts and mistakes should definitely happen.

I do see RevengerR's point though, and it is a tough debate on improving the AI because atm, you are forced to play with people online (which in my opinion is better), and having Singleplayer for more players will probably decrease online players, who knows .

But I play online a lot, as well as play Singleplayer modes in lots of racing games... it doesn't mean I wont be online . Usually if I am bored and nobody is racing online (or I don't like the choice of servers), I'll go play Singleplayer.

AI will be lots of fun to play around with when they are fixed :up:

It would be good also if you sit on the tail of an AI it can pressure them into a mistake just like a human. Would be good to see them overcook a corner every now and again.

Quote from Tweaker :

Usually if I am bored and nobody is racing online (or I don't like the choice of servers), I'll go play Singleplayer.

AI will be lots of fun to play around with when they are fixed :up:

Yep. Exactly when I use them as well.

Also if they are good enough and didn't wreck you there could be a server option where you specify a number of AI slots. The server would then run the AI to padd numbers and AI are removed as players join.

I think they AI could be useful for testing simple setup changes (like downforce settings) if they were improved slightly. You can even use them for this now but you have to run them on the same track and set for a good couple of hours before they get to a speed where testing has any point.

I think a simple improvement for the AI would be to make them less prone to simply sit behind their AI counterparts. Not sure why they do this but the decision making as to whether to pass or not needs to be improved.

Also, if you run them for 2 hours they get to the limit at some parts of the track. Change their setups (maybe reduce front downforce) and they crash repeatedly in the same places. I think the learning in this kind of situation needs improving. If they detect a setup change and then crash at a corner they shouldn't continue to try and take that corner at the speed they could prior to the setup change. They should be more conservative and build up the speed again.

I must say though, I have hours of fun with my AI. I like watching them learn.

Quote from [RCG]Boosted :

im sorry but what a load of bs.
of course the real fun is in multiplayer, but a lot ppl (including me) do drive from time to time singleplayer against AI (whyever) and it would be nice to have decent AI (more human like) to race with.
actually, i dont think there are much more important things to do, dont forget the AI is still from S1.

Thats what I was talkin bout, no need to give em random start time when they r older than the Mount Everest and even a geico caveman is brighter
And for testing sets with AI's, well, I dont get it. AI would never push to the limit, so it wont really reach the set's limits either. Still, I like to try out my sets myself, although watching em takin AS3 T1 in the BF1 with 95% brake balance on the real is priceless

Agreed that the AI needs a number of improvements. However, the AI is not as important as other portions of the game and therefore low in the development cycle. My suggestion is very simple since its just a random number and I thought that it would be rather simple to do as opposed to things like making the AI smarter, having it understand the concept of pitting, etc.

Quote from RevengeR :

Thats what I was talkin bout, no need to give em random start time when they r older than the Mount Everest and even a geico caveman is brighter
And for testing sets with AI's, well, I dont get it. AI would never push to the limit, so it wont really reach the set's limits either. Still, I like to try out my sets myself, although watching em takin AS3 T1 in the BF1 with 95% brake balance on the real is priceless

Ahh - but if you reduce say downforce and they go faster that's a pretty good indication that you will go faster too with lower downforce. The great thing about AI from a testing point of view is that they are absolutely consistent.

They do need to learn to recover from off track excursions better though. That would make them a whole lot more useable.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Ahh - but if you reduce say downforce and they go faster that's a pretty good indication that you will go faster too with lower downforce. The great thing about AI from a testing point of view is that they are absolutely consistent.

They do need to learn to recover from off track excursions better though. That would make them a whole lot more useable.

The problem with the AIs is that they cant learn 'backwards'. Like they learn how to take a turn, and the more laps they do, the more they hit the wall (like so1 with fo8, after like 30 laps none of em will be able to finish a lap). Also, they cant take a turn on a different line, all of em are stuck to 1 line only. Scawen should improve on their 'IQ' first, then he could give them human-like things like that. Also, smaller updates that would make the game more handleable and practical would be much better.

The AI evaluates the lines it takes for speed each time it tries them.
In early practice a line that cuts across grass can apear quicker than the old line, just because the old line was rediculously slow. Then they forget about the line they consider slow and try to optimize the new line.
You can undo this sometimes by placing a long line of haybales that deflects the AIs back to a proper line. Once you managed to make them go a proper line they'll get the idea that staying on the track is a pretty good way to lap well and they'll try to optimize the new sensful line.

That's why you shouldn't start practicing the AIs with a field of several AIs. This can cause them to 1. go rediculously slow if they are locked behind another car and 2. go completely wrong lines because of attempted passes which they consider quicker then because of 1.

Vain

The AI were pretty good in S1 days, but since they haven't been updated, don't even know what "black stuff" is half the time... should have seen the FZ5s I sent around BL1 the other day.. 3 of them spent almost 3 mins dancing around like a bunch of poofs at the entrance to the chicane on lap 1 because they all went wide and up on the grass and span, then couldn't work out how to apply the power without spinning again... lather, rinse, repeat. As they are right now, the AI (Artificial Ignorance) is nothing but a bad joke

The AI _are_ important IMO... everyone bitches about "n00bs" and not knowing how / when to brake and the likes... what better learning ground than against some AI that won't get pissed off and ban you when you do ultimately make contact through that over-enthusiastic lunge.. whether they're competitive is neither here nor there, it could still provide the "bread n butter" of racing theories for new comers.

I actually enjoy offline racing for one primary reason.. when I do decide I want to race, I want to _race_.. not sit around for 45 mins in between the 5 lap sprints having random chit-chat.. I can do that on IRC or whatever.. so at least offline, I can hammer race after race after race without the gossip



Regards,

Ian

Who says AI is not important? I don't have internet on my gaming rig, I have to race offline. If I did have the net on my gaming rig, I wouldn't be able to find the combo that I want to drive. I have to race offline.

I'd hazard a guess that nearly half of licenses racers spent a large amount of their time offline.

I didnt say its not important, i just said the devs shouldnt mess with such small things until they improve on the AI's speed. They are quite useless right now imo.

They need to know of the new paths before they go fast.. what's the point in making them faster if they can't even stay on the tarmac as it is? First they need some intelligence, then they can think about going faster.. probably why we normally learn to drive in some small-arsed slow shopping car rather than a 800bhp tuned Supra.. it's all about fundamentals

I'd be happy if the AI could actually make a few laps without crashing every time at some place even if I was 10 secs a lap faster.. at least that would provide some overtaking practice.. setting up position to pull off the move etc.. as they currently are, they have a fixed path to follow and god help you if you happen to be on it when they want to be

I'd far sooner AI be worked on that many of the other bits I've seen mentioned recently especially as that area hasn't been touched in 2 years!



Regards,

Ian

On-Topic: I like AI improvements, so +1.

Quote from Ian.H :

They need to know of the new paths before they go fast.. what's the point in making them faster if they can't even stay on the tarmac as it is? First they need some intelligence, then they can think about going faster.. probably why we normally learn to drive in some small-arsed slow shopping car rather than a 800bhp tuned Supra.. it's all about fundamentals

I'd be happy if the AI could actually make a few laps without crashing every time at some place even if I was 10 secs a lap faster.. at least that would provide some overtaking practice.. setting up position to pull off the move etc.. as they currently are, they have a fixed path to follow and god help you if you happen to be on it when they want to be

I'd far sooner AI be worked on that many of the other bits I've seen mentioned recently especially as that area hasn't been touched in 2 years!



Regards,

Ian

I meant smarter under 'faster' which would probably mean recoding the whole AI stuff.

Quote :

as they currently are, they have a fixed path to follow and god help you if you happen to be on it when they want to be

exactly, thats what makes them completely unable to race with.

Personally, i have never raced against the AI, even on my first day in LFS i found them way off my pace. Anyway, it would be cool to see the AI dirving wr close times and do random errors like braking late, sliding on corner exits rather than the actual 'I can do that flatout with 150°C tyres no matter whos on my line like before' thing.

Quote from RevengeR :

I meant smarter under 'faster' which would probably mean recoding the whole AI stuff.

Fair play.. I guess I took 'faster' a little too literal as you're right, to be faster you need a number of other "skills" too, not just pure speed

Quote :

Personally, i have never raced against the AI, even on my first day in LFS i found them way off my pace. Anyway, it would be cool to see the AI dirving wr close times and do random errors like braking late, sliding on corner exits rather than the actual 'I can do that flatout with 150°C tyres no matter whos on my line like before' thing.

I don't know if you were around in S1 days, but the AI were pretty good then. Sure, they weren't WR holders, but I could have a pretty good race with them (I guess I'm an average player as far as skill / lap times go).. their learning was good.. they'd improve by maybe 10 or so seconds on some tracks.. they'd overtake.. sit behind and then dive down your inside.. all a lot cleaner than the average demo server

Even if the AI are brought back up to the standards they were in S1.. it'd make them very useful for a variety of people.. not everyone as some people simply can't stand AI, but for a lot I think they'd highly welcome some progress in this area and ASAP

Either way, to respond to the actual topic.. when they are improved, they do need some "human like" mentality.. although they'll never replace human thought.



Regards,

Ian