Yep. I'm sick of going to good servers like STCC's and uncaring people just dont want to have a REAL race. The option to penalise for ANY contact would quickly stop thes 'cells' blending in for laps and then fooling around.
Contact penalty option:
would also quickly stop close fighting.
Wouldn't work.
I see,
I suppose the word 'Contact' needs to be defined.Contact could be measured by the collision system, light nudges would be overseen where as pushes and bumps(Damage inflicting)could be penalised by warnings, 5 warnings = a drivethrough.10 warnings = kick.
with the current damage system you probably could get a 100 warnings with 1 collision :P
Hah! i was just online at STCC2 and witnessed (as usual) no holds barred as far as contact rules are concerned. Even guys honking there way through turn 1 and pushing othes off the track!!
There's just too much racing on STCC for this type of thing to be controlled, so nobody follows these very important rules. Maybe they dont even know about them
Its quite annoying i agree. Unfortunately i dont think its possible to incorporate this type of penalty system into the game. Contact rules might just be too dynamic to properly translate into code.. correct me if im wrong programmers and techies!! (there are just situations where the software could make a bad call, due to close calls in turns and such.. nudging etc.)
But look at it this way for the STCC, its just racing to collect points, to get to the REAL race, where the racing IS clean. But you have to get there first, which involves alot of really great driving and point collecting, which is time consuming regardless of a few wrecked races due to contact norules.
There's just too much racing on STCC for this type of thing to be controlled, so nobody follows these very important rules. Maybe they dont even know about them
Its quite annoying i agree. Unfortunately i dont think its possible to incorporate this type of penalty system into the game. Contact rules might just be too dynamic to properly translate into code.. correct me if im wrong programmers and techies!! (there are just situations where the software could make a bad call, due to close calls in turns and such.. nudging etc.)
But look at it this way for the STCC, its just racing to collect points, to get to the REAL race, where the racing IS clean. But you have to get there first, which involves alot of really great driving and point collecting, which is time consuming regardless of a few wrecked races due to contact norules.
Of course they know about the rules they just know they will get away with it!
I know what you mean about it might be a bit hard to get LFS to determine the difference and not make a bad call.
I wonder if it would be possible to let it only warn when one car touches another with great force, 'damage inflicting force'???
Hmm.. wouldnt do it, not for me anyways.. actually not for anybody.
Think about it, youre going through a turn and the ass behind you taps you just enough to send you spinning.. he should have backed off just a bit so as not to touch you at all.. but anyways, off he goes with no penalty beacuse he didnt hit you with "damage inflicting force", and youre ripping up your tires tryin to swing about and get back into the race.
Yep. I agree with you there, a situation like the one you explained above would go unpenalised because of the lack of contact, but the if the system was to be kept simple and only penalise heavy contact then thats half the battle won is it not?
All in all, i dont forsee a real solution to the problem, and having one that doesnt work properly will have side effects in the game that we cant even think of at this moment... maybe after alot of contemplation... nah, id rather go sleep 
With STCC you should just send a replay to Becky or other STCC admins and if the person in question really is a complete tw*t they will be banned and the STCC points removed. TBH what more is required in this situation.
On normal servers you can just call a vote kick/ban as well. It normally gets people under control quickly.
In racing there are mistakes and even good drivers can miss a brake point slightly and stuff up etc, no easy way to automate this.
A much better and easier thing to do is have a DNF (Did Not Finish) stat for each player. Every race that LFS world logs that you start but do not finish should be counted. People will be more inclined to want to finish as race then and hence not wreck.
On normal servers you can just call a vote kick/ban as well. It normally gets people under control quickly.
In racing there are mistakes and even good drivers can miss a brake point slightly and stuff up etc, no easy way to automate this.
A much better and easier thing to do is have a DNF (Did Not Finish) stat for each player. Every race that LFS world logs that you start but do not finish should be counted. People will be more inclined to want to finish as race then and hence not wreck.
Tis very very very true. In the S1 server tonight, FE Green, someone who has been racing for quite some time now and I know who tries to be considerate and clean on the track tried to stuff his car through the back of someone else in T1 right from the start. He pulled himself from the race, appologized of course, even watched that same guy he hit and sent him a setup (the guy that was hit was fairly new).
Yup, that guy who smashed through T1 was me. DOH!!! For us who has been here for years, it is embarrassing to do. No idea what happened, I just though "WHOA BRAAAAAAKKKKEEEEE!!!!!!!" I felt really bad of course.
People can have bad nights on the servers. People make mistakes. If you are looking to automate something to keep the servers clean, it just doesn't work.
I remember a server that use to kick to spectate folks who crashed (via LFSLapper I believe). It wasn't fair for the person who got crashed into getting kicked to spectate. It just couldn't tell who did the crashing and who got crashed into.
Mike, I have the same thing happen, but at the worst time... like STCC races. :S My first ever STCC race started the same way, I outbroke myself that same sort of way, luckily not wrecking anyone. Its a bad moment for experienced drivers, especially when you do it to a new driver, but there's nothing else you can do.
-1 from me as you never get magical foam detection bump dents in real life.
if i driver is driving badly, then report them!
Go to license.ukct.net
Go to license.ukct.net
Oh god!!
*waits for the influx of people reporting me...:hide:*
*waits for the influx of people reporting me...:hide:*
Forgetting diliberate wrecking, I just think it is much harder to race closely in a pack of cars in a sim than in RL for the simple reason of no peripheral vision (unless ur lucky enough to have IR tracker and a three monitor setup) then add lag to the equation and it's near impossible but we do it more often than not, which is amazing for weekend racers I think 
I had a particularly tough time on STCC S1 server (running rally on one of the Aston configs) a few nights ago myself, and nearly felt like pulling the pin on public racing altogether because of it (nobodies fault but my own, just very hard combo for pack racing). I feel abit better now and may go online again someday
but probably not until I get three monitors and IR tracker 
but we do it more often than not, which is amazing for weekend racers I think I had a particularly tough time on STCC S1 server (running rally on one of the Aston configs) a few nights ago myself, and nearly felt like pulling the pin on public racing altogether because of it (nobodies fault but my own, just very hard combo for pack racing). I feel abit better now and may go online again someday
but probably not until I get three monitors and IR tracker /me deletes earlier post!!!
We should have small electrodes in wheel and those would give shock based to contact strength, that would be good, also if you don't keep hands on wheel it would put you to spectate immediately.
Penalty system would of course keep things more clean, some may be too afraid to race after that but wouldn't it just separate those who can race from those who can't, I'm sure that those who can't race are not getting too close other cars IRL either so it would not kill close racing, but enforce more real like tactics and contact awareness. However problem is who will get penalty, both? How could you tell which one's fault contact was? Quite impossible for program to decide.
Again it leads to realistic damage model, specially tires that would pop because of sharp metal etc. so you would be genuinely scared for contacts.
One should make decision when racing that leave enough space for all parties, so it makes battling bit harder, but also more tactical interesting, usually this is spoiled by some that squeezes from narrow space where you might survive in 1 of 100 cases, 110V electric shock to those
Penalty system would of course keep things more clean, some may be too afraid to race after that but wouldn't it just separate those who can race from those who can't, I'm sure that those who can't race are not getting too close other cars IRL either so it would not kill close racing, but enforce more real like tactics and contact awareness. However problem is who will get penalty, both? How could you tell which one's fault contact was? Quite impossible for program to decide.
Again it leads to realistic damage model, specially tires that would pop because of sharp metal etc. so you would be genuinely scared for contacts.
One should make decision when racing that leave enough space for all parties, so it makes battling bit harder, but also more tactical interesting, usually this is spoiled by some that squeezes from narrow space where you might survive in 1 of 100 cases, 110V electric shock to those
Just for your information the STCC servers are now tracking accidents. It does not try to attribute fault, the theory being a high number of accidents (however caused) is a sign of a bad driver.
Currently nothing is done with this information, we want to analyse the figures first before making a decision on what, if anything, to do with it.
You can recall the information we are tracking with the $myinfo command. More stats will be added soon too, once the recent major update has proven stable for a while.
The plan is for this information to effect peoples licences. The detection system tracks yellow flags your car has thrown at a maximum rate of once per sector. It does not track after you have finished racing.
Currently nothing is done with this information, we want to analyse the figures first before making a decision on what, if anything, to do with it.
You can recall the information we are tracking with the $myinfo command. More stats will be added soon too, once the recent major update has proven stable for a while.
The plan is for this information to effect peoples licences. The detection system tracks yellow flags your car has thrown at a maximum rate of once per sector. It does not track after you have finished racing.
Becky, that sounds really nice feature, good job again 
There are a load of factors that would help decide who was in the wrong. I don't think it's impossible to design a piece of software which can work it out. I've had a few races ruined because someone was riding my ass at T1 and didn't see me brake early to allow the person in front space, therefor pounding me into the barrier. Here are some examples of things to consider in an automated system:
1. Relative speed at moment of impact. Generally the slower car isn't going to be at fault, unless they're driving in a crazy fashion (see point 2).
2. Actions being taken at moment of impact. If you're braking, you're at least trying not to hit someone else. If you're accelerating, it's more likely to be deliberate. Obviously steering towards the other car means you're likely to be to blame (that one would be hard to figure out though). Possible exceptions would be sudden braking on open areas to cause the trailing car problems (see point 4).
3. Part of car involved in impact. If the front of one car hits the side or rear of another, the chances are that it's not the side of the car to blame. Likewise, not too many race incidents are due to someone reversing into someone else (see points 2 and 4).
4. Relative position on the track at impact. This one is really only relevant when someone is re-entering a race after pitting or going wide. If someone is off the line and hits someone on the line, it's probably their fault. Collisions where both cars are off the track should not be considered, since you're pretty much at the mercy of physics when in the gravel on racing tyres.
There are probably more that would help as well, but these are all that are jumping to my mind at the moment. Obviously no automated system is going to be perfect, but with enough variables it should be possible to have one which is right the vast majority of the time.
I do agree that once proper damage, aero physics and collision detection systems are added, this will probably not actually be so necessary, since the fear of destroying your bodyword/tyres/suspension will force people to drive fairly.
1. Relative speed at moment of impact. Generally the slower car isn't going to be at fault, unless they're driving in a crazy fashion (see point 2).
2. Actions being taken at moment of impact. If you're braking, you're at least trying not to hit someone else. If you're accelerating, it's more likely to be deliberate. Obviously steering towards the other car means you're likely to be to blame (that one would be hard to figure out though). Possible exceptions would be sudden braking on open areas to cause the trailing car problems (see point 4).
3. Part of car involved in impact. If the front of one car hits the side or rear of another, the chances are that it's not the side of the car to blame. Likewise, not too many race incidents are due to someone reversing into someone else (see points 2 and 4).
4. Relative position on the track at impact. This one is really only relevant when someone is re-entering a race after pitting or going wide. If someone is off the line and hits someone on the line, it's probably their fault. Collisions where both cars are off the track should not be considered, since you're pretty much at the mercy of physics when in the gravel on racing tyres.
There are probably more that would help as well, but these are all that are jumping to my mind at the moment. Obviously no automated system is going to be perfect, but with enough variables it should be possible to have one which is right the vast majority of the time.
I do agree that once proper damage, aero physics and collision detection systems are added, this will probably not actually be so necessary, since the fear of destroying your bodyword/tyres/suspension will force people to drive fairly.
[[[[[edit]]]]] Theres no point in trying to distinguish what makes a crash and what does not, it's too complicated and the chances of a bad call being made atm with the current collision system are too great.
For the moment Becky's sstem on the monitoring of yellow flags a driver causes seems to be the only rational way of dealing with the problem at hand.
Hopefully as you said Daj when we have a better collision system the added fear factor of sharp debris and tyres poping will be enough to keep this horseplay off the track....for the moment can we have an option to have explosive reactive armour plating in the STCC, it would add to the destruction derby smell in the air there?
For the moment Becky's sstem on the monitoring of yellow flags a driver causes seems to be the only rational way of dealing with the problem at hand.
Hopefully as you said Daj when we have a better collision system the added fear factor of sharp debris and tyres poping will be enough to keep this horseplay off the track....for the moment can we have an option to have explosive reactive armour plating in the STCC, it would add to the destruction derby smell in the air there?
Automated penalties based on any collision detection are unworkable in a race sim. They always will be.
Just so everyone is clear, when wrecking on an STCC server the backmarkers only count in the event of a tie.
Contact penalty option:
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