I've tried searching for this particular question, but I couldn't seem to locate any answers, but I do realise that there is a library full of threads on the subject, so my sincere apologies if this has been covered before in one of them.

Anyway, here is my question:

Which is the ''correct'' order of the heel-toe technique?

1. Brake.
2. Disengage clutch.
3. Blip throttle.
4. Shift down.
5. Engage (release) clutch.

or

1. Brake.
2. Disengage clutch.
3. Shift down.
4. Blip throttle.
5. Engage (release) clutch.

As you may notice, #3 and #4 are switched in the last order.

Is there an important difference in how the car responds when using these different orders, or is it exactly the same? If any, what are the benefits/downsides of either of these orders?

Thanks in advance for your replies

I think it's the second one, but I'm not 100% sure, seeing as I CAN'T drive irl

The second one, but it's fluidity you want, rather then definite 'rules'.

The gear change, throttle blip and clutch engagement should be one smooth action, resulting the the engine being at the correct revs as the clutch bites.

A slow revving engine might need throttle application before the gear actually engages, so that it's revved enough as you come of the clutch, whereas a faster revving engine might only need a tiny blip just as the clutch engages.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The second one, but it's fluidity you want, rather then definite 'rules'.

The gear change, throttle blip and clutch engagement should be one smooth action, resulting the the engine being at the correct revs as the clutch bites.

A slow revving engine might need throttle application before the gear actually engages, so that it's revved enough as you come of the clutch, whereas a faster revving engine might only need a tiny blip just as the clutch engages.

I'm just a bit confused, as the first order is actually the one which is mentioned the most by far, including Wikipedia. (now, I know that Wiki isn't always that reliable, but still ;d)

Is there actually a difference in how the car responds, regardless of the revving speed? If we're talking non-racing cars with fairly standard engines, is there a difference?

Sorry, yes, the first one will be best, as you want to get the gearbox internals working at the same speed, which requires the throttle blip. I wrote that one above in a bit of a hurry, but the fluidity bit still stands.

As long as the gearbox internals allow the gears to mesh (with or without a syncro) and the engine speed to match the gearbox speed to match the road speed, then it's okay.

Quote from tristancliffe :

As long as the gearbox internals allow the gears to mesh (with or without a syncro) and the engine speed to match the gearbox speed to match the road speed, then it's okay.

Haha, I appreciate your quick replies, and I understand the gist of what you mean, but the last part of that sentence looks like a proper riddle to me

having got my g25 recently i have been trying to do heel and toe as well. however i am struggling to do it properly. when i blip the throttle i cant do it enough to get much response from the engine. Also the actual braking force ends up wildely modulating as well. i suspect that i simply need A LOT of practice but i was wondering about exactly what part of your foot you use to blip the throttle? as to press the throttle properly for this i become useless on the nbrake pedal and vice - versa.

I know its called heel and toe but i find trying to use my heel really uncomfortable and i have seen videos of drivers actually only using the side of their foot for it... what is the norm?

The 'norm' is now the side of your feet and a rocking motion - it's easier, and is much more suited to smaller cockpits where space and steering columns might get in the way (though some drivers stick with the literal understanding of heel and toe, to their deficit).

The G25 is rubbish for heel and toeing anyway, as the pedals are too far apart and positioned badly. In a real car you have the throttle 'up' position roughtly in line with 50% braking, so that when braking hard your foot finds it easy to blip the throttle. The G25 has both pedals in the same plane when 'up', so making your foot have to contort to heel/toe. Add into that a soft brake pedal (limitation of hardware at a sensible cost), and a HUGE gap between brake and throttle, means it's almost impossible to do without a lot of practice. I don't bother anymore most of the time, and I've been heel&toeing real cars daily (automatically) for more than 8 years.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I've been heel&toeing real cars daily (automatically) for more than 8 years.

arent you strictly against reving engines without load on them ?

Yes, but only for no reason. i.e. if you're sitting in your driveway and think that revving an engine to >4000rpm can tell you anything whatsoever about how it's running then you are a class A fool. But if you are at 3000rpm and need to be at 4500 for a downshift then I would advocate it without questions, especially in a rear wheel drive car where locking the driven wheels might be a bad idea.

I was under the impression to get evertyhign spinning at around the same rpm you want to..

1. Brake.
2. Clutch in.
3. Shift to Nuetral
4. Clutch out
5. Blip throttle.
6. CLutch in
7. Shift down.
8. Clutch out.

Shifting this way gives a much smoother shift which I think is the desired effect. Even on synchrod boxes.

Surely it won't be smoother if you don't match the revs before you de-clutch :S

Quote from Davo :

I was under the impression to get evertyhign spinning at around the same rpm you want to..

1. Brake.
2. Clutch in.
3. Shift to Nuetral
4. Clutch out
5. Blip throttle.
6. CLutch in
7. Shift down.
8. Clutch out.

Shifting this way gives a much smoother shift which I think is the desired effect. Even on synchrod boxes.

That's double-declutching, and is required on some non-syncro cars (or some first gears on syncro'd boxes). Hell and Toe is a different technique altogether.

Get a BMW and heel & toe is just natural

The pedal design is just riiiiight. Im tall (196) and with standard pedal design of most sucky FWD cars (merc was shice too) i could never heel & toe because the wheel was in the way and it just didnt work out. maybe at real high speeds and almost full brake... now with my E30 318is its easy as pie and i dont do anything else.

Well I've always heel n toed double declutch when down shifting and braking heavily. It's been a while since I drove manual though so maybe I'm just confusing myself.

I've gotten to where I can heel toe decently on my g25, I have the ball of my foot on the brake then rotate my heel out towards the gas(so foot is at about a 45 degree angle) then I hit the gas with the top right side of my foot.

I have found it easier to just brake hard and then go from say 5th to 2nd in a hard corner rather than going down through all the gears sequentially, does anyone else do this?

Quote from spankmeyer :

...if you haven't got gigantic feet!


Slim sole indoor sport shoes. Works like a charm.

Dude, just get the Puma Sparco racing shoes look-a-likes... I got them, and have been simracing with them for 5 years... They're perfect. Like... No sole indoor racing shoes

Regarding the G25 and heel-toe (which is originally something I didn't even want to go into, but my question has been answered anyway ;P)
Looking at the pictures of those pedals, I'd say it would actually be easier to operate both the brake and clutch with your left foot, strangely enough. That way you could brake with your heel, and then squeeze down on the clutch with your toes. Same motion, different foot, and the other way around.

I have no idea how ''deep'' the pedals go, but if it's anything like DFP or DF pedals, that should be easier
Impossible to do in a real car though.

Quote from TagForce :

Dude, just get the Puma Sparco racing shoes look-a-likes... I got them, and have been simracing with them for 5 years... They're perfect. Like... No sole indoor racing shoes

Duuuuuuwwd.........

They cost way more money than those cheap-ass (around 25 euros) Adidas shoes.

get some proper racing shoes...

I'm using some slightly modified old karting shoes

Quote from three_jump :

get some proper racing shoes...

I'm using some slightly modified old karting shoes

But duuuuuuwwd.........

Those cost way much more mone--- nevermind. Those look like crap.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I do just fine

no you dont

With all this talk about heel/toe now that the G25 is out, I've been attempting to do it IRL in my truck. All I succeed in doing is wedging my foot between the throttle and brake pedal, LOL. There would be no way I could do it IRL with what I have. I can't rotate my foot as there isn't enough leg room to do that, and if I try with the side of my foot, like I said, I get it wedged down between the pedals.

What's the purpose of this post? I don't know, some one tell me, hehe. Just felt like commenting since I've really been trying IRL.

Actually, by the time I've gotten the throttle to blip, I'm slowed down enough that moving down a gear would only get me back up to idle speed, LOL.

Quote from mrodgers :

With all this talk about heel/toe now that the G25 is out, I've been attempting to do it IRL in my truck. All I succeed in doing is wedging my foot between the throttle and brake pedal, LOL. There would be no way I could do it IRL with what I have. I can't rotate my foot as there isn't enough leg room to do that, and if I try with the side of my foot, like I said, I get it wedged down between the pedals.

What's the purpose of this post? I don't know, some one tell me, hehe. Just felt like commenting since I've really been trying IRL.

Actually, by the time I've gotten the throttle to blip, I'm slowed down enough that moving down a gear would only get me back up to idle speed, LOL.

Tell you what Mike, I had to bend my Sunfire's gas pedal up and over to the right in order to do it. And since I am very unflexible, and my feet are very narrow (4" at the widest point!) I have to do a weird jerk of the leg. I keep the ball of my foot at least halfway on the brake, and the side of my foot hits the gas.

Keep working on it, buddy!