Neither do I but it's happening...
The remark about specator mode is very funny, what's more it's immensely helpful...
Neither do I but it's happening...
The remark about specator mode is very funny, what's more it's immensely helpful...
I think that you really should post even a simple replay of your driving and comment what you find unreal there. Im afraid that we are still missing the exact point of your complainment.
BTW, I also have personal experience with "auto" countersteer - even my old Driving Force which I had before DFP I profited when sliding because of that helpful force that somehow told me what wheel lock I have to apply to correct the slide.
G25 has a WAY better FF servos, so that may cause your surprise(I know I am just repeating what has been already said)
BTW, I also have personal experience with "auto" countersteer - even my old Driving Force which I had before DFP I profited when sliding because of that helpful force that somehow told me what wheel lock I have to apply to correct the slide.
G25 has a WAY better FF servos, so that may cause your surprise(I know I am just repeating what has been already said)
Don Palmer driving handbook
"It transpires that if the rear of the car is sliding laterally the slip angle that this induces in the front tyre generates a corresponding self-aligning torque in the tyre that can be detectable as a torque in the steering wheel.
"Allowing the steering wheel to move with the torque induced in this way will keep the front wheels pointed in the direction that they were originally pointed. The steering wheel may move a considerable amount in these circumstances. Letting go of the steering wheel altogether will allow maximum freedom of movement of the steering wheel in response to self-alignment torque generated in the front tyres by lateral movement of the rear of the vehicle.
"NB. I am not suggesting that we all go round letting go of the steering wheel at every opportunity but as a learning tool it is very important to recognise that the steering torque is capable of moving the wheel appropriately."
"It transpires that if the rear of the car is sliding laterally the slip angle that this induces in the front tyre generates a corresponding self-aligning torque in the tyre that can be detectable as a torque in the steering wheel.
"Allowing the steering wheel to move with the torque induced in this way will keep the front wheels pointed in the direction that they were originally pointed. The steering wheel may move a considerable amount in these circumstances. Letting go of the steering wheel altogether will allow maximum freedom of movement of the steering wheel in response to self-alignment torque generated in the front tyres by lateral movement of the rear of the vehicle.
"NB. I am not suggesting that we all go round letting go of the steering wheel at every opportunity but as a learning tool it is very important to recognise that the steering torque is capable of moving the wheel appropriately."
Ok, here's a video of what's happening. It was captured with cell phone so be undestanding. I hope you can make anything of it.
http://rapidshare.com/files/5799280/MOV00002.3gp.html - 1.3 MB. The video shows what's happening while doing donuts, the wheel just tries to opposite lock every slide. When oversteering while driving, all I've got to do to recover is just let go of the wheel and it will correct the car and position it straight. This is not normal. The cars don't recover just by themselves, this one does
http://rapidshare.com/files/5799280/MOV00002.3gp.html - 1.3 MB. The video shows what's happening while doing donuts, the wheel just tries to opposite lock every slide. When oversteering while driving, all I've got to do to recover is just let go of the wheel and it will correct the car and position it straight. This is not normal. The cars don't recover just by themselves, this one does
Good, I have just uploaded WMV version of your vid cause 3gp file is not playable with usual PC Players. Now I think that local "speed gurus" can tell you what is it all about.
Download here - http://rapidshare.com/files/5800566/MOV00002.wmv
Download here - http://rapidshare.com/files/5800566/MOV00002.wmv
Thanks, and your right, should have posted the wmv or avi. Sorry.
Yup. That's what it's supposed to do.
The forces on the front wheels always cause them to line up with the direction the car is moving.
When going in a straight line, you will not feel any force on the wheel. As soon as you apply any steering angle, you feel torque on the steering wheel as the front wheels are trying to pull back to the direction the car is moving.
That's how people drive street cars: you apply force to the wheel to turn, but when coming out of the turn you just let the wheel slide through your fingers and it centers itself.
However, if you oversteer, if the rear end gets loose, the rear end will swing in the direction the car is moving, and so will the front tires. They will turn to face the direction the car is moving. Since the car is now moving sideways, they will turn to the side -- into the turn -- countersteer.
Another way of looking at it: if the rear end of the car swings to the right, but the tires stay pointing in the same direction, what happens to the steering wheel? It turns right.
When the car catches grip at this new, oversteer induced steering angle, the car will whip around to the other direction, and the front tires will follow suit. If you just let go of the wheel and give it enough gas to get the rear end loose, the car will oscillate back and forth like that, with the wheel automatically turning from one side to another.
Go to a parking lot and light up your tires if you don't believe it. Or watch one of the posted drifting videos.
Try this: go to Blackwood Car Park with the LX6, hit V to change the view until you have the overhead view (looking straight down on the top of the car). Now crank the wheel to the right or left and floor it so the rear end comes loose. Take your hands off the wheel, keep the gas down, and just watch the car slide around. Pay attention to the front tires, and you will see that they always try to stay pointing in the direction of the car's momentum.
So the bottom line is: you don't have to do anything to catch a slide... which is of course not true. But that's how it is implemented in LFS, all I do now when sideways is let go of the steering wheel and wait for the car to stabilise.... then simply put my hands back on the wheel and drive on quite interesting 
But if you say it's correct, then ok.
which is of course not true. But that's how it is implemented in LFS, all I do now when sideways is let go of the steering wheel and wait for the car to stabilise.... then simply put my hands back on the wheel and drive on quite interesting But if you say it's correct, then ok. Sure, if you want to slam into a wall, like you did in the video. If you want to actually get around the track, you will stop the wheel at the appropriate lock and recenter it when the car gets traction (to avoid spinning out in the opposite direction).
...or avoid the oversteer so you don't need those over corrections at all [/smart-ass]
Is the G25 even fast enough to make those corrections by itself?
Is the G25 even fast enough to make those corrections by itself?
I am sorry to say but I think you just dont believe a real car does this.
One thing is that in real life you have fear to deal with and this stops you pushing a car as far as you do in LFS.
Push the back end out on a car in real life and the steering wheel WILL counter steer.
I will say this again just to make sure you have heard it.
Push the back end out on a car in real life and the steering wheel WILL counter steer.
This is just physics at work. All LFS does for force feedback is push the forces applied to the cars front wheel to the steering wheel and this is what happens in real life.
Every car will do this if you step the back end, even FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CARS, in a reproducable way every time you slide the back end.
(NOTE: Do NOT try this UNLESS YOU KNOW YOU WILL BE SAFE and your handbrakee works on the REAR wheels!!!!!!!!!!!! I take NO responsibility for your safety)
If you do not believe this then take your real life car to an BIG EMPTYcar park/lot so you will have LOTS of space around you. Drive around in a circle at about 30km/h. When you have the car stable quickly lift of the gas to dump the weight forwards while you yank the handbrake.
When the back end stars to go let go, which it will, let go of your steering wheel and watch it try countersteer.
What the G25 tries to to a real car will do. Its just a real car will do it even faster and with even more force than a G25. I own a G25 as do many here and we will all say that LFS is right.
The force feedback is NOT wrong. LFS along with any other serious sim, will do this. Try the G25 in NK, NKP, GPL, NR2K2 F1C, rF GTL, GTR, RBR, they will all do the same.
I believe it was Juan Pablo Montoya who said sometime last year in an interview that he is not worried about oversteer because ALL cars automatically correct it (to some degree - obviously user intervention will help and be quicker/safer)
A real car WILL automatically countersteer for you. If it doesn't then something is seriously wrong with your car.
Every car I have ever driven, from hatchbacks to sports cars, supercars to single seater racing cars, and even go-karts will automatically countersteer upon oversteer.
If you've never experienced it then I can only assume that you don't know what you are talking about.
A real car WILL automatically countersteer for you. If it doesn't then something is seriously wrong with your car.
Every car I have ever driven, from hatchbacks to sports cars, supercars to single seater racing cars, and even go-karts will automatically countersteer upon oversteer.
If you've never experienced it then I can only assume that you don't know what you are talking about.
Though this sounds more like a complain thread regarding either LFS or the G25.
But in fact it just proves once again how great the G25 is. Can't wait till I get my hands on it hehe~
But in fact it just proves once again how great the G25 is. Can't wait till I get my hands on it hehe~
Just watched your video again and tried to do same with may way worse DFP. Even DFP is able to "catch" a first slide, what it doesnt do is catching the next one "over correction" slide. I would understood to your complains if your slide was miraclously corrected and car continued straight on. According to your vid this is not what happens, forces affecting front wheels are just lowering oversteering, they are not substituting driver corrections completely.
Unfortunately the video does not show those miraculos corrections. I have told you: I DO believe that cars do those things but the way it's implemented in LFS is not real, I repeat: all I have to do to recover from oversteer is let go of the wheel and the car will recover by itself in every situation, applying just the required ammount of opposite lock making driver interaction usless - this is what I'm complaining about. I repeat I DO believe that cars behave in this manner in reality but only to some extent which unforunately is not simulated in LFS by the looks of things. Recovering is ridculously easy - letting go of the wheel and waiting for the car to stabilize virtualy in every situation. Do real cars do this? do they apply just the right ammount of opposite lock depending on the situation with wheel returning to initial position? Bacause that's how LFS cars behave. Again, I don't have to do anything to recover from a slide, just let the wheel do it by itself.
To what extent do you believe they do? Can you be more specific?
It sounds like you have not understood the explanations given thus far. I can visualize what's going on at the front tires pretty easily, but if you're having a hard time, do the experiement I suggested: car park, LX6, top-down view. Get into a skid, let go of the wheel and floor it, then watch the front tires of the car; the forces acting on them keep them pointed in the direction the car is moving. As the car body whips around, the front wheels try to stay pointing in the same direction, so the steering wheel goes nuts.
Yes. Basically the front wheels remain pointed in the direction of travel while the ass of the car swings around them. From the driver's perspective, the steering wheel is automatically countersteering. The more the rear end swings out, the more the wheel countersteers. When the rear end regains traction and it will fall in behind the front tires. From the driver's perspective, the steering wheel is automatically centering.
LFS is hardcore simulation, written by something of a purist. There are no canned effects. The wheel doesn't countersteers becomes the developers explicitly programmed it to, it countersteers because a sophisticated mathematical model of the vehicle's body, suspension, tires, the road surface, etc. has produced that force.
LFS's physics model is not 100% realistic, but it's the best currently on the market. It's very good.
Your video shows you slamming into a wall. *confused*
Did you watch the drift videos that were posted? Did you see the wheel countersteer on it's own? Is that not what's happening to you?
My video is not exactly what I intended to show. The car behaves just as you have described - the slide is miraculously corrected and the car continues straight on.
Why are you so ignorant? Read the post above yours.
same here. the vid he posted maked me want the g25 so bad.
jankes... the g25 is not made for lfs... maybe you should send it to me. and i will give you my dfp which works great with lfs
The point of this coinversation starts to vanish. As I said the video I posted may not be the best example. You seem to listen but not hear. I DO acknowledge such behavior but the way it works in LFS is not satisfactory - meaning that I don't have to do anything to recover the car from a slide because it will ALWAYS recover by itself no matter how serious situation may be. Are you telling me this is normal? Are you all telling me that in reality you don't need any skills at all to recover a car from a slide? Bacause this is how it looks like in LFS, this is what I experience.
I will consider this
I'm not being ignorant, I'm trying to establish some knowledge. And I have read the posts above.
you can try playing with the ffb settings in profiler to make the wheel feel more dull.
Look, a car with no powersteering, and plenty of caster in the front wheels, WILL recover from a slide. However, the skill is required by the driver to prevent the car from overcorrecting or overstraightening, to stop the car from running wide, e.g. travelling straight on ahead. The skill is needed to regrip the wheel at the correct time, to make sure that the car is at the right angle for the corner that you are in. However this is not always easy, even with the so called "auto countersteer" which is real, because if you stop the wheel before the slide is fully corrected, you will spin into the turn and lose control. If you stop the wheel to late, you will end up running wide, rather than going around the corner. THIS is where the skill is involved.
Exactly, I know what you mean but unfortunately it doesn't look like this in LFS, the car will simply recover by itself without my intervention. That's what I'm talking about. I would like LFS to require skills in this matter, right now it's not the case. Apart from that I consider LFS the best simulation out there.
Logitech G25 frustration
(72 posts, started )
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