Quote from AR92 :

Conflict of what priorities?

Well, I don't really expect you to understand unless you've tried coding a 3D graphics engine. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Quote from AR92 :

One of my mods has 480 tri for single spoke and can't really find a way to reduce it more without losing details, and cuz of this, it only permits to increase it to 3 spokes yet i need 5 more to complete a old steel rim

So far you're not really trying.

Quote from Scawen :

Use the RIM EDITOR to make the rim.
Use the SPOKE EDITOR to make the spokes.

Try to really understand the diagrams in my first post. if you don't listen, you won't learn. What you are calling a steel "rim" is actually a whole wheel, and the rim itself looks nothing like a real steel rim. A steel rim follows the yellow lines in the rim editor, which you are failing to observe.

You really need to try and learn to use the rim editor and then you will find there are plenty of triangles left for your spokes.

Also, go for a walk and have a look at some real steel wheels.

Quote from Scawen :

Also, go for a walk and have a look at some real steel wheels.

Don't worry, i know what a steel wheel is. Yet i somehow managed to reduce it down despite the limit and even updated it some minutes ago What i meant by "old steel rim" is its design and shape, if you know. According to shape of the rims of old cars, they are mostly made out of one piece and there are holes on it. Modern rims like alloys have "spokes" or "arms" or whatever, you name it.

Quote from AR92 :

I'm not really sure this fits to "way too smooth" definition:

Plenty to save there

Quote from AR92 :

According to shape of the rims of old cars, they are mostly made out of one piece and there are holes on it.

It seems to me, two pieces actually. On a traditional steel wheel, the "Rim" part and the "Spoke" part come from separate pieces of metal.

I found this video very interesting:




By the way, does everyone know that in the spoke editor, if you are actually using "number of spokes" more than 1, the editor allows you to stitch one spoke perfectly to the next? Triangles can be connected from the "main" spoke to the one to the left of it (magenta points). Then click "wire" view mode to check that edges are shared correctly.

no issues from me, but took a few tries to get it right. I did this in under 2 hours.

also all old steele wheels are two pieces.

Most of staff picked mods' rims i checked are over 1600 tris, and by far. Please scawen increase polycount limit to atleast 4000. The lag spikes you talk about it's because of mods with 25k tris rims, 4000 tris you wont feel anything even with a potato pc like mine.

Quote from Yasso7up :

Most of staff picked mods' rims i checked are over 1600 tris, and by far. Please scawen increase polycount limit to atleast 4000. The lag spikes you talk about it's because of mods with 25k tris rims, 4000 tris you wont feel anything even with a potato pc like mine.

1) You haven't read my post above.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2074374#post2074374

2) You still haven't answered this question.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2074213#post2074213

A vast majority of the currently uploaded mods are running around on 100k tri ripped wheels. They go right through the review process this way. Pretty common to see even a tweak mod on the aftformentioned wheels.

on a full server where people are allowed to pit anytime, that pit lag forbids racing. Sometime on JaR u get so much people, that u can have a string of pit exits so close from each one and u cant just take a corner properly.

Also people tend to gather in same places, so u can have 15-20 cars swarming at that place, making fps drop to sometimes 10 on my old q6600 system.

Pit lags got worse and worse since some monthes, I didnt have some much drops last summer so it's good if checks are implemented and limits enforced. Having 50% of a mod's polycount on the rims is absurd, go racing instead.

Separately from the spoke object hack, people were also using alternate configurations to bypass triangle limits.

I found a mod using this exploit with over 170,000 triangles, including hub objects with over 27,000 triangles each.

Although this battle has been a bit tiresome, it has been interesting to learn about this contribution to mod-related pit exit lags.

Quote from turbofan :

on a full server where people are allowed to pit anytime, that pit lag forbids racing. Sometime on JaR u get so much people, that u can have a string of pit exits so close from each one and u cant just take a corner properly.

Also people tend to gather in same places, so u can have 15-20 cars swarming at that place, making fps drop to sometimes 10 on my old q6600 system.

Pit lags got worse and worse since some monthes, I didnt have some much drops last summer so it's good if checks are implemented and limits enforced. Having 50% of a mod's polycount on the rims is absurd, go racing instead.

I totally agree with you I suffer from the same problem whenever the server is crowded (30 players plus) I start get pit exit lag and sometimes it freezes for few seconds specially when someone is using those drift spec cars (s13, s14, s15), and now since I discovered that high poly rims have something to do with pit exit lag as scawen says I'll have to fix my mods too.

after all I don't think this decision is bad at all since we have rim editor that allows pretty good and detailed rim lip, on rim spoke we just need to get creative.

I'm quite out of touch in terms of mods, not sure if the N.400S GT4 mod exceeds any limits or if relevant at all..., just my two cents:

Yesterday during Round 1 of NDR GT4SC, we had a lot of Shift+P/joins during the semi-hardcore qualifying, and the stutters were not pleasant at all while driving (doing actual hotlaps). I don't have a weak system, and still get those stutters with a lot of mods. Again, I have no idea if this specific car has all objects within limits or uses some exploits, no idea.

If that pretty detailed car adheres to all mesh-relevant limits, then no way I would even think about raising any limits. Optimize your models, people, do the work - proper modding is not just about throwing in a random, hyper-detailed mesh you just found, calling it a day, and when problems come up, starting to blame others for the work you have not done.

Quote from MandulAA :

I'm quite out of touch in terms of mods, not sure if the N.400S GT4 mod exceeds any limits or if relevant at all...

Regarding the N.400S GT4

The spoke object does exceed limits. It has 6095 triangles but the limit is 1600 so this has been inserted into the veh using a hack.

The main model is only 20 triangles below the limit at 65515 triangles. This limit was only intended for extreme cases, it's not a target or a guide. Really models should be a lot lower than this and still be good quality for a game. Lower polygon count is better for game models.

Given the very high resolution main model, I don't know how much of the generation time is caused by the spoke object. But the spoke object is excessive and also wasteful - there is a lot of detail also in a rim object that mostly can't be seen as it is hidden by the so-called spoke object.

Given the new rim editor allows good detail to be produced by the rim cross-section, I can see no reason why the rim editor could not be used as intended in this case and use the spoke model for... spokes.

Quote from Scawen :

Regarding the N.400S GT4

The spoke object does exceed limits. It has 6095 triangles but the limit is 1600 so this has been inserted into the veh using a hack.

The main model is only 20 triangles below the limit at 65515 triangles. This limit was only intended for extreme cases, it's not a target or a guide. Really models should be a lot lower than this and still be good quality for a game. Lower polygon count is better for game models.

Given the very high resolution main model, I don't know how much of the generation time is caused by the spoke object. But the spoke object is excessive and also wasteful - there is a lot of detail also in a rim object that mostly can't be seen as it is hidden by the so-called spoke object.

Given the new rim editor allows good detail to be produced by the rim cross-section, I can see no reason why the rim editor could not be used as intended in this case and use the spoke model for... spokes.

I took a quick look in editor for this mod (N.400S GT4) and I found too many errors could that also be another reason for pit exit lag ?

Quote from MandulAA :

Optimize your models, people, do the work - proper modding is not just about throwing in a random, hyper-detailed mesh you just found, calling it a day, and when problems come up, starting to blame others for the work you have not done.

This!

Lots of the mods have wheels that are ready for renders, but totally not suitable for in-game use. If you want to have nice looking screenshots, make/buy a 3D model and render it into a scene, but blaming the dev of a sim game for not having it up to your standards is wrong. Don't be lazy, do the work.

I would also like to add that low poly models deforms and show damage much better in LFS. I mean high poli looks aluminium foil after a wreck.
Some mods did give not maxed out frame rate and that's a shame considering my hardware (5800x3d plus 3070 GPU).
And rims well for any speed above 0 it is just like a disc.

Quote from Scawen :

Regarding the N.400S GT4The main model is only 20 triangles below the limit at 65515 triangles. This limit was only intended for extreme cases, it's not a target or a guide. Really models should be a lot lower than this and still be good quality for a game.

Can I ask what could be the optimal number of triangles? Also what could that extreme cases be? I always thought this limit is a safe point and I should aim for that, delivering the best possible visuals.

Here might be your answer: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/106757-Limits-are-now-enforced-when-mods-are-uploaded

Quote from Scawen :

Regarding the N.400S GT4

The spoke object does exceed limits. It has 6095 triangles but the limit is 1600 so this has been inserted into the veh using a hack.

The main model is only 20 triangles below the limit at 65515 triangles. This limit was only intended for extreme cases, it's not a target or a guide. Really models should be a lot lower than this and still be good quality for a game. Lower polygon count is better for game models.

Given the very high resolution main model, I don't know how much of the generation time is caused by the spoke object. But the spoke object is excessive and also wasteful - there is a lot of detail also in a rim object that mostly can't be seen as it is hidden by the so-called spoke object.

This is my mod and I have already explained my position on this matter. As for the spokes, it's a bit surprising to me to see messages about "hacks", when the LFS official discord channel was calmly discussing instructions from draggo on how to do it and there were mod reviewers there as well. And I thought it was common practice to do, just dont need to be an moron and make spokes over 10k and veh file over 2mb. And because it turns out to be such a big deal seeing this thread yesterday I started changing the spokes and rim to hit the limits. Its your game and your rules.

And I uploaded it to the site today with other fixes over an hour ago, but for some reason the LFS still has the old version. And new version is not published

Quote from Scawen :

Given the new rim editor allows good detail to be produced by the rim cross-section, I can see no reason why the rim editor could not be used as intended in this case and use the spoke model for... spokes.

Because the rims in this mod were made before the rim editor was updated, which allowed making details like flanges and bead and what I was talking about earlier. And because of this, I had to use the spoke editor in those days..

Thanks for updating it to make use of the new system. I look forward to seeing the updates.

You should have received an email listing what is wrong with the updated mod.

I see this in our logs:
LOD1 of Config 2 - Too many triangles

I think you should see that if you go in the modeller and click the different configurations, if one of them goes red then the limit is exceeded.

By the way, if it was my mod (although I don't have these skills) I would be looking at those bad normals, too thin triangles etc. Many of them are easy to fix and would save frame rate, can make it tidier, you could reduce the polygons count by hundreds.

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks for updating it to make use of the new system. I look forward to seeing the updates.

You should have received an email listing what is wrong with the updated mod.

I see this in our logs:
LOD1 of Config 2 - Too many triangles

I think you should see that if you go in the modeller and click the different configurations, if one of them goes red then the limit is exceeded.

Oh sorry, completely forgot about that

Quote from Scawen :

By the way, if it was my mod (although I don't have these skills) I would be looking at those bad normals, too thin triangles etc. Many of them are easy to fix and would save frame rate, can make it tidier, you could reduce the polygons count by hundreds.

Just fixed all of that

Thanks, that's good that you did the cleanup and reduced polygons.

As far as I can tell you have plenty of detail in the spoke object. But I would like to talk about the rim profile, for you and anyone else reading.

I really need to do a video about this but I had a cold during the holidays. Now I can talk normally again so maybe I should get on with it. I think the new rim editor is not well understood yet, and as it now has so much flexibility there is also potential for errors.

The rim editor contains a "STEEL RIM" profile shown in yellow which is the least amount of metal to make a rim. Alloys really have the same shape inside but have a different outside (thicker metal for strength, also potential for styling).

So taking your mod, the way you have done the new rim is really not correct for this wheel size. I've done a quick edit to show an example that is realistic in the rim area for this wheel diameter. Although there is a lot of variety in alloy styles, it should not be *above* the steel rim profile. Just *outside* it. I hope my attached screenshots explain (also in the first post of this thread but I think I need to explain this more).

By the way, if sharp edges are wanted you can use smoothing groups on the surfaces.

Good to have a look at cross section images such as these:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rim+cross+section&t=ffab&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

Compare with steel rims:
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=steel+rim+cross-section&iax=images&ia=images

See that alloy rims have the same shape interior as steel rims, and the shape where the tyre bead attaches is critical (so the tyre can be mounted, doesn't come off, wear out, etc). Alloys just have thicker metal and that can be styled a lot (on the outside) unlike steel rims which are kind of all the same as each other in the rim area (because with a steel rim, the outside is the same shape as the inside).

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks, that's good that you did the cleanup and reduced polygons.

As far as I can tell you have plenty of detail in the spoke object. But I would like to talk about the rim profile, for you and anyone else reading.

I really need to do a video about this but I had a cold during the holidays. Now I can talk normally again so maybe I should get on with it. I think the new rim editor is not well understood yet, and as it now has so much flexibility there is also potential for errors.

The rim editor contains a "STEEL RIM" profile shown in yellow which is the least amount of metal to make a rim. Alloys really have the same shape inside but have a different outside (thicker metal for strength, also potential for styling).

So taking your mod, the way you have done the new rim is really not correct for this wheel size. I've done a quick edit to show an example that is realistic in the rim area for this wheel diameter. Although there is a lot of variety in alloy styles, it should not be *above* the steel rim profile. Just *outside* it. I hope my attached screenshots explain (also in the first post of this thread but I think I need to explain this more).

By the way, if sharp edges are wanted you can use smoothing groups on the surfaces.

I understand that the rim should be done according to the yellow guideline. But I need to make a beautiful replica of a real rim based on the reference and because of this, following the reference I got such a flange. But my mistake is rather that I chose the wrong spoke size. Ill try to fix it, but it's quite a complicated task to make a rim following a reference without seeing the spoke on the diagram.