This course is tough. Its very bumpy and it seems I can't go more than two laps without hitting the wall. Any one have any tips?

oh yeah, using the fox

Quote from Chriskart :

If you're not racing in leagues and organized events who generally likes pick-up racing at public servers, then i'd say no.
On the other side, if you're into the above mentioned i think a good team could add a lot more to your experience with lfs. It also gives you access to great leagues like MoE and BOTT, where you can drive against the best of the best out there..

Before i joined a team i was generally bored about lfs - it was the same thing all the time, just driving around with peaople i got to know through public racing. I enjoyed it but it was boring over a long term.. When i then finally was lucky enough to join up with a good team i was introduced to a whole new level of simracing. Suddenly you got to know heaps of fast guys through leagues and such, and i immediately felt like my interest and motivation went up a lot!

Also, lots of teams communicates through teamspeak while racing, which adds some more excitement into the race itself. Before events it's often useful to create special teamsetups for that little extra speed, making tactics and discuss the set with other teammembers.. A team will probably give you lots of new elements to handle, and much of it is probably just like a real life team would operate.

However, it depends on both the team's/your motivation and what you want to do

I'm definitely look for more of a real world team feel where you work together to help each other learn and get faster and race in league events. However based on the comments in this thread it seems like I need to spend a lot of time just working on my racing alone before any team would consider letting me participate.

Quote from chanoman315 :

oh you've been here for 2.5 years and you still dont know ? :doh:

I've owned the game for 2.5 years. Just started really playing it about a month ago.

So I was driving the fox at South City Town and went full speed into a wall. Ok, car totaled right? Nope, I check suspension and no damage. Car drives as if brand new. How can doing 200 KPH straight into a wall not possible end my race?

Quote from tristancliffe :

For a beginner? No, absolutely not. The last thing you want to be in is a team in your first year... There is too much to learn about speed, handling, racecraft, consistency etc, and all of these things are best learnt by driving. Lots. Only when you win regularly on pick up servers, even when starting near the back, and can pass/defend against anyone without making contact, even by accident, should you think about joining a team.

Then you have to choose a team - if this is the case, don't bother. Wait for a team to want you - you will be in a better team, with better drivers. Over 99% of LFS teams are rubbish, with no aims, rubbish drivers, and no results.

What can a team offer you? Support in leagues, mainly. Yes there is the social side of things, but that can be had via forums, MSN and real life visits. You don't need three letters in front of a name to be a friend.

The big question is - what can YOU offer a team? Can you arrange and run a league? Run a website (properly, not a crappy free one)? Can you make software that will aid the team? Are you gifted at sorting race strategies or managing a driver(s) in a competative league??

Chances are you won't get quicker in a team, you won't make any new real friends, you won't get glory, money, or generally better. It just means you have to do leagues (otherwise what is the point of a team?), and wear the team skins, and dedicate time to helping the team in whatever way you arrange.

If it's just a 'friendly team', solely for people to chat, and race with known people then isn't that a bit pointless? How is the racing or the chat improved with three letters in front of your racername?

I was in three teams. The first was formed by Will Dendy, and it was him, Kirves and myself. Will spent ages pursauding me to join, and I was already a quick driver by then. That was then taken over by vMax, run by James Burgess. I was happy there for several years, and did various leagues for the team, and assisted in running the team later in my time. We were never a top team in LFS, mainly because we had no direction - I believe they were better in NASCAR. But then Triple7Racing came a knocking, and it was too good an opportunity to miss. It started well, and I tried entering leagues, but real life was taking up too much time. I tried to stay, hoping that I would get the chance to race in T7R colours again, but I eventually realised I was just taking up space that a better, more committed driver could use, and so I left (hopefully on good terms - I certainly have nothing bad to say about any member of T7R past or present). I don't think I'll join another team, even if real life allows me several hours a week in LFS again (rather than an hour per month, max), because they can't offer anything I want that I can't get without a team, and I can't offer a team anything they need.

In short - don't bother with teams unless you plan to race in lots of leagues with the same people.

That kind of sums up my impressions but I wanted to hear for sure. Especially since the members on this forum are so helpful. Of course, without asking you never know, which is why I asked.

What are the advantages of joining a team? Especially for someone as inexperienced as I am? Are they helpful in learning the sim or is it more just a group of people to race with? Being in the US, it seems most teams are in Europe, are there any US teams?

I'm trying to learn and get the most out of LFS and am basically wondering if joining a team would help me in that quest.

Quote from Kamrock :

Ok, it is possible (I've not driven the FOX for a long time) that I am in the wrong if you are apexing where the WR does.

I've had a quick fiddle with the setup and may I ask why there were such extreme values in the steering geometry? (BTW I setup by feel, I've not yet had the honour to download and play with Bobs tools, Having setup the same way for a good few years, I dunno, never tried it, although I'm thinking I might) I've lowered these settings and found more grip (and more rolling resistance unfortunately) but this has allowed to drop the DF and the increase the tyre pressures to make up for it. +7 toe twinned with 12 psi pressures on the rear is the sole reason for those tyres overheating... I do like the low settings in the LSD you haven't been tempted to increase the power lock too far and remove oversteer completely from the vehicle.

The result is that the car is less "twitchy" but quicker through the longer more gentle corners (which KY3 is made up of) Also, as you cut those kerbs quite violently the Anti-Roll and Damper settings seem a touch high, a slight clip of the kerb can launch the car and upset the balance (causing spins under power).

If you want to give this a try and see if you prefer the way it feels, your setup just feels too eager is some places and a little unresponsive in other places....

EDIT: This current setup has the same DF settings as you originally had, even though I did originally have both set 2degs shallower

Based on what Jason was telling me earlier in the day, I came home and set the front toe to -.2 and the rear toe to 0 and the car handled much better. I started with the default setup which had .5 toe in the rear so when I made the car more twichy I thought adding a little more rear toe would help which it did but caused other problems I've since put the R2 back on the rear and raised the pressure slightly. I still need to test that change out.

Since I've been home I also set all the dampers back to the critical dampening and have tweaked them slightly to reduce the tightness in the car but overall the car feels much better (still a little tight though). I'll take a look at your setup in a bit.

Thanks for the help. I can really see an improvement in both the way the car handles and my driving thanks to you guys.

Quote from Kamrock :

Jarmenia, just watching th replay now, you are missing a few apexs, and taking them too early in many cases. Also it is VERY important that you enter corners slower and power (ideally full throttle, but that all depends on ths corner and stability) out of them in as straight a line as possible, in the FOX the apex should be the tightest part of the corner (in a steady curve this being the exact middle point.

Have you DL'd a WR replay at all for this track? That should be a good guide to apexes..

Yes I have DLed the WR and when I put my line and his line on the track map in LRA or Analyze for speed my line apexes at the same spot his does on most of the turns. Unless I'm completely misreading what these things are telling me. Which isn't totally unlikely.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Do you think it would be beneficial to have the damping graph overlaid on top of what critical damping would look like?

It would be nice in this case because that's what the manual talks about here: http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/A ... #Bump_.26_Rebound_Damping

Never mind the question about critical dampening. I read the manual for the VHPA again and saw there was no graph, just the numbers. That being said...


Is a good starting point to set the dampers to the critical dampening and the tweak from there?

Quote from JasonL220 :

i mean, that the front toe is normally between -0.2 and 0. and the rear +0.2 and 0.0 for this car.

Ok, I'll try lessing the toe tonight but like I said, I got much better turn in when I increased the front. Maybe moving the back and the front a little closer to 0 will help.

Quote :

for the dampers that is general rule for all car and tracks, if you use bob_smith's VHPA setup program and set the dampers to 50% critical and rebound to 100% critical and use that as a start, and try not to increase the rebound to much or lower the bump much.

I was trying to figure out how to turn the critical dampning on in the VHPA yesterday but couldn't figure it out.

Quote :

the ARB is different for each car and slightly different for each track, all the set that i have seen for the FOX use setting about 10N/mm less on the arb

so you think I should lower both ARBs by 10 N/mm?

Quote :

i found that increasing the pressure on the rear's by about 50Kpa and r2's was alot better, i think the overheating was cuased by the large rear toe, cuase the tyres to drap along the ground abit instead of rolling

When I lower the rear toe I'll throw the rs'2 back on and see if they are still over heating.

Quote :

sorry was not very clear, the corner after the 3rd gear right hander

Ok, I know what you are talking about. So I should enter the esses slower rather than letting the speed burn off during the first right hander?



Thanks again, this is great info.

Quote from JasonL220 :

had a quick look at the set and a drive in the car, is is what i noticed:

toe was very extreme that car needs very little toe, it made the car twitchy at the front and very understeery, becuase the rear could not change direction easily, and increased tyre wear alot.

Strange this is exactly the opposite that I noticed. when i added more negative toe to the front last night (went from -2 to -4) that's when I started running laps in the 2:21.XX range.

Quote :

the bump dampers should be less the than the rebound, and the ARB's where a little high

Is this a general rule for all cars and tracks or just this car and this track?

Quote :

the car can use r2's at front and rear for long race's, and the chamber at least a whole degree too positive.

I had been running r2's at the front and back but the back tires were getting to hot and it was like driving on ice. Putting the r3's on the back solved that problem. What else could have been causing the overheating rear tires?

Quote :

hope that helped, i might try and make a set later explaining the stages that i took.

that would be helpful

Quote :

your lines arn't bad, but the corner after the first split is not quite full throttle you need to slow down more on entry

hope that's useful

are you saying the right hander after the esse or the right hander after you cross under the bridge?


Thanks for the feedback.

ok, I attached my current setup and PB replay. Lap 5 is the fastest lap. Any and all comments are welcome.

Would any of you mind looking at the setup I've been testing for KY GP Long? If so PM me your email address and I'll send it. I'll also send an SPR of my replay so maybe you can tell me why I'm so much slower than the WR.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Come along to the gentlefoot server on Saturday. We can give you sets so you can get a feel for how the FOX should respond. Also we can give you some tips on lines and stuff. It will be very useful for you to watch some of the GFC guys lapping.

I can make some changes to the set too for you, tell you what I did and you can feel the differences.

I'll try and stop by but I've got a very busy weekend ahead. Are you guys around during the week at all?

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

You will do well with that approach. I used to just steal people's sets and use them but although I was pretty quick it it wasn't enough. Only you can set the car up to the way you like it. When I started doing that I found the extra 5% I needed to turn podiums into wins.

Well right now my goal is to not start last after qualifying.

Thanks for the advice Gentlefoot and I did check out your site. Looks nice. Please don't get the impression I'm trying to shortcut the learning process but by asking questions I've gotten a lot of information, especially things to look for like if you did this then you should be feeling this type of stuff. In fact a few times I didn't know what I was feeling until someone told me.

I put in over 160 off line laps just working on camber / tire pressure not to long ago, that was on top of the laps to learn the track ect so I'm willing to put the time in, please don't think I'm one of those people unwilling to work hard. Infact, that's one of the reasons I don't want to use other peoples setups, so that I have to learn how to be fast.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Definitely not.

Aero and gearing comes first. Then brakes and camber. All within the first couple of laps.

Suspension and tyre tweaks happen once I find a groove with the set, and adjust as I feel necessary.

Thanks Bob. It seemed a bit odd to me as well but its all I had to go on.

When starting at a new track, do you base the new setup on one of your existing setups or do you start with the default car again?

So do you typically setup your aero first, then tune the rest of the car to it or vice versa? The spreadsheet I'm using that walks me through the steps goes something like this:

1 - set up the springs
2 - set camber and tire preasure
3 - set caster, then redo step 2
4 - set toe, the redo step 2
5 - gearing
6 - brakes
7 - dampers
8 - is aero.

I got the spreadsheet from a link someone posted in one of my other threads. Are these the same steps you guys follow?

Quote from Kamrock :

I'm sure you realised all of this but I will mention it again as this rather simplistic view of it all is fairly accurate, take for example, the FBM on westhill, because Westhill is a VERY fast circuit and in the FBM there are only two points where you won't be in at least 5th gear, thr DF on the front can be quite low, but you want a fairly decent rear DF figure to keep the grip up through the long fast corners...

Aston Cadet, however, is much different affair, the slower top speed of the track allows you to lower the back end DF, but the (quite tight) mid-speed corners require a bit more front end DF, and as the top speed is fairly low you can also sacrafice a bit more top end to gain grip through the corners.

Does this help?

Right now simple concepts is what I need. Still trying to learn about racing.

Quote from Kamrock :

The ultimate setup is to have the gears (and driver) setup so that you change up when the acceleration in your current gear dips just below the acceleration in the next gear up. But this of course just assumes that you get your transmission curve right in the first place. I am working on some power/torque curves based on a cars performance as this is something I've always wanted...

@jarmenia - what sort of racing are you looking to do? I'm a fairly accomplished drag/caterham racer IRL and I have been able to help people iron out issues in their driving styles after watching a few laps.

Would you be able to send me a replay of you doing say 10 laps around the track you're having issues with?


EDIT:
Also, someone mentioned the red light being the ultimate time to change up? Personal experience has lead me to beleive this is not so, I find it far too high in most cars, including the XFG the FXO and the RB4 as three examples...

Right now I'm taking part in the OWRL and, being very new to racing am kind of just trying to find out enough to start. Its kind of you need to do it to know what questions to ask if you know what I mean.

I guess I phrased the question wrong. I'm looking for a good place to start when setting up the FOX for a track. I've started with the default setup which seems to be overly tight on everything so to try and get a decent setup to start tweaking from I'm more looking for suggestions on what aero setup is a good place to start so I can then start dialing in the rest of the car.

Quote from AndroidXP :

He means the simple drag/lift ratio. Taking the FOX' front wing as an example, if you set it to 0° at 40m/s test speed, it has a ratio of 38/115 = 33%, whereas if you put the angle to full 20°, it has a ratio of 200/885 = 22.6%.

This basically means that in this example the front wing becomes more efficient as you increase its angle. So while reducing the front wing will reduce drag and make you faster on the straights, you lose proportionally more downforce than you reduce drag.

To understand why this happens, just imagine the extremes. If you put the wing angle in a position that doesn't create downforce (slightly upwards), then the whole wing assembly will still be there and produce drag. Or the opposite, if you put the wing to a full 90°, there will be no downforce but only heavily increased drag.

So how do I use this info to get a general idea as to how to setup the FOX for a general track?

Quote from Forbin :

One way to get a general idea is to calculate the efficiency of the wings (lift over drag) for the range of usable aero balance. 25-50% is a good place to start, althogh 50% will probably be too much.

I'm really new to this stuff so I have no idea what you mean. Can you give me a quick example of how to do it?

What are good general aero settings to use with the FOX? I've read that to make the fox fast you need low aero settings but how low is low? I don't think it would be possible to go 0/0 right? But what about 3/6 (front / back?) Obviously the track matters so I'm just looking for general guidance here.


As always thanks for the help.