Quote from Scawen :

Yes, the modern city and so much of the landscape is designed around the car...

I'm pleasantly surprised to have the same vision. As a new urbanism activist since ~2012, I wouldn't expect that from racing game developer.

Modern cities are inconvenient and humiliating to those who aren't in a car. (Actually, from what I saw in Google panorams British cities are much less awful.) You get crowded buses, 200 seconds (!) red countdown for pedestrians, crossings moved hundreds metres for convenience of cars, dirty pavetments, or lack of them, subway stations designed to move you like cattle, etc.

That's not quite clear to us, young to middle age healthy males, who can quickly walk upstairs, or work hard and save up for a car. But a decade ago, I've read a guy describe his experience being on chemotherapy, getting around cities by foot. (Uber-like taxi to ride to the opposite side of a street wasn't the option back then). That was quite a revelation, that even a long red light is a burden to a weak person carrying something, e.g. pregnant woman who went for groceries.

But for a healthy adult male a baby carriage (stroller) will suffice, to feel the humiliation. Try getting on a bus, that has low floor, but stops in a metre from the kerb. Try getting through an underpass. Or ride subway in a rush hour (because on the ground, all roads are congested). (Damn, I shouldn't have visited Stockholm, where they have elevators for carriages right from the pavement level down to the very subway & rail platform. Space tech! And you don't have to fight with the doors, trying to drive the stroller in -- there are buttons that open and hold the door for you. Now I remember that at every freaking doors -- and in our city, they're two of them at every place, to keep warm in winter.)

But back to cars -- I drove enough, and I don't see how it's convenient. In many places, streets are one-way, you must do some exrta loops. Service roads to malls or big stores have weird patterns, you waste quite some time there. You waste time parking too -- looking for a free spot, getting in cul de sac and backpedalling carefully, etc. Or standing in a congestion doing nothing.

Car nowadays just saves you from humiliation of walking in the cityscape designed like industrial site.

P.S. regarding people not being able to buy a car and complaining. In Copenhagen, where you can (or as some say have to) ride a bike, you don't need to waste money on a car. Can save it up for an apartment, for vacations, and other more important things. That's why recently I got a cheap folding bike, to get to shops and around the city, to not waste money on taxis and e-scooters. Saving a few € per day.

Last edited by detail, Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:53.

3 years ago I finally decided to get a driving licence and bought a wheel with 3 pedals to train in LFS. (Used mouse buttons as shift up & down, to imitate the need to reach the shift lever.)

Learning the real car went very smoothly, except for exactly this thing: I revved up very much to avoid stalling the engine.

The instructor yelled at me: "NOT THAT MUCH!!!" a few times the first day. Had to get used to not rev up.

I was really surprised that cars can move without throttle in the 1st gear.

After several days at driving school, I guess, my brain learned two separate patterns of behavior.

I applaud the effort! I've not been playing for quite a while, partially because on a laptop with 3D accelerator, some mods made races unbearable -- FPS dropped down to around 1, effectively turning LFS into PowerPoint. Wish you have enough energy, Scawen!

Infelizmente, isso é o limite do LFS. A altitude sobre a superfiz pode se mudar só por 25 centimetros. Mas, não lembro exactamente, tal vez prova inserir a altitude em texto (clicar com botão esquerdo ou direito na cifra mesma). Os ángulos da inclinação têm degraus discretos, se lembro bem.

Quote from dariusalbetr :

I don 't trust anyone , there is propaganda from all sides . And everyone wants to impose their point of view .

That's because you're not educated on social science. Get educated on them, or better take a masters degree course. You'll know a lot. You'll be able to distinguish propaganda from real careful research, demagogy from systematic observations. It takes effort, but it pays off.

Last edited by detail, Tue, 28 Mar 2023 16:55.

To others who can't read Russian, we discuss whether, how and if, polls/sociology (and in particular Levada Center) are trustworthy and indicate real life.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

И что ты хочешь этим сказать? Что Левада-центр это независимая организация которая проводит опросы честно в сегодняшней России? Ты серьезно веришь в это? Сколько еще в России ты знаешь каких либо независимых организаций которые работают в России с общественным мнением. В медиа например, или социологических?

Да. К ним ни у кого из уважаемых людей не было претензий. Европейский университет ещё есть. Есть хорошая лекция Кирилла Титаева (как раз из ЕУ) про социологию и опросы, и там сказано, кто и как врёт.

В плане опросов, поддерживают ли люди войну, даже если предположим, что люди смущаются и это даёт некоторую погрешность, всё равно если делать опросы регулярно, можно заметить динамику. Левада-центр проводил их регулярно, какие-то антивоенные настроения появились после мобилизации, но потом затихли. Не думаю, что Гудков тут врёт -- он как либерал из 80х годов с радостью бы сообщил, что настроения резко поменялись. Просто они себя и других социологов регулярно проверяют на смещения, на манипуляции или ошибки в опросах и им истина дороже.

Quote :

То что Левада-центр никуда не вляпался за 40 лет для меня звучит как аргумент против их репутации. Любые независимые организации которые имеют какой то вес, и к которым прислушиваются подвергаются нападкам.

Ну так их государство и объявило "иноагентами" ещё лет 7-8 назад.

Quote :

Не смотрю Шендеровича, не знаю о чем он говорит. Окей, давай предположим, что чисто теоретически Левада-центр действительно не врет. Хотя я не согласен с этим. Как это отменяет первые два пункта, о том что люди в целом врут, особенно при таких режимах и о том что большинство опрашиваемых не поддерживающих войну просто бы даже не стали отвечать на вопросы? Сам себя в этой ситуации представь. Мы говорим про систему которая сажает за слова.

Просто мы с тобой эту повестку про наказания за репосты и т.п. знаем, а средний человек с образованием ПТУ/техникум (таких примерно 50% населения) этим чаще всего не заморачивается. Гудкова спрашивали, стали ли меньше люди отвечать в опросах по сравнению с 2021 годом и ранее -- нет, не стали. Гудков как сам либерал точно бы отметил противоположное.

Quote :

Ну Гудков просто описал ситуацию с либералами в России, и я с этим в целом согласен, но там ничего удивительного нет. Авторитарная система будет сильнее разрозненного протестного движения, не надо быть гением что бы понять это. Даже куда более сильные протесты в Беларуси это показали. По результатам которых видимо и была написана статья. Гудков это все еще апелляция к авторитету. Аристович например войну предсказал, и что это значит? Что он херни говорить не будет? Нет.

Его главный тезис там в том, что не изменилось массовое сознание, что оно как в СССР формировалось, так и формируется примерно теми же средствами в школе, армии и т.д., но либералы не хотели это замечать и рассчитывали, что общество станет подобным европейскому само собой.

Что касается Арестовича vs Гудков. У Арестовича нет системы, теории из которой он этот прогноз сделал -- это "чуйка". А Гудков измеряет мнения людей последовательно, по одной системе, причём индустрия опросов знает про возникающие искажения и в ней все проверяют себя и друг друга на корректность методов. Свою репутацию Гудков испортил бы если бы опубликовал "джинсу" с нарисованными цифрами, но такого не было. А его мнения и оценочные суждения -- с ними можно спорить.

Просто я видел и плохую науку и хорошую, и по тому, что говорит Гудков и Титаев, могу доверять их суждениям и результатам (естественно, зная, что есть погрешности).

Quote :

А это что значит? Молчание знак согласия? Если мы говорим чисто про их истинные убеждения, ты уверен что можешь так говорить о людях в России которые живут при этом режиме?

Ну я видел как наползал путинский режим в начале нулевых, и как и многие тогда ушёл в частную жизнь, решив, что политика -- это грязь. Я их прекрасно понимаю, и претензий к тем, кто остаётся, у меня нет.

Last edited by detail, Sun, 26 Mar 2023 17:48.

Давай я тебе доходчивее по-русски объясню. Во-первых, я 40 лет прожил в России, ходил на кучу протестов -- и в 12 году, и в 21-м, когда ментов было больше нас. Стоял с агитацией за навальнистов (общался с сотней прохожих в день и мнения их были примерно те, что описывает Гудков), писал программы кандидатам в мэры, когда ещё оставались выборы. Так что я достаточно знаю про политику и общественное мнение.

Что касается социологов, "всё в порядке, всё честно" -- ну да, "всей правды мы не узнаем". С таким подходом как ты веришь например тому ролику, что приводишь сам?

Что касается нечестности -- есть такая вещь как проф.репутация, и за 40 лет Левада-центр ни разу не вляпался в платные и фальсифицированные опросы. Гос-социологи, конечно, задают вопросы манипулятивно, но речь не о них.

Ты следуешь логике Шендеровича, который с дивана из-за границы считает, что в РФ "нет социологии". И ты так и не понял, кто такой Гудков и Левада-центр, если называешь его "человеком из системы".

Его статью я привёл, чтобы показать, что он угадал с прогнозом, и его мнение до войны соответствует тому, что после, и он не предрекал "агонии режима" как некоторые говорящие головы.

А так -- ну да, согласен с тобой, что страна тоталитарная, пропаганда везде. И Гудков про это же.

Расходимся мы вот в чём: ты утверждаешь, что люди не поддерживают войну. Гудков и я считаем, что они пассивно её поддерживают.

Last edited by detail, Sat, 25 Mar 2023 07:10.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

I often hear about the 80% of the Russians supporting the war. And for those who do not live in Russia it is difficult to explain why this sociology is not true.

They do suport it. Sociology is true. Pollsters who do these polls, know their job very well -- they do test their questions for bias, they did make different questions to detect different sentiment.

The argument that Russians are afraid of answering to polls, is a projection of intellectuals. Working class and people without degree (that's ~66% of population) don't see the world like a 1984 story and aren't that paranoid. Pollsters say they often started to speak more to them, and those who oppose the official position too.

Intellectuals' counter-arguments are demagogy -- they say "maybe people are afraid to speak?" and turn this supposition immediately into a quasi-fact to disprove decades of professional work of pollsters & sociologists. (I must point that in Russia, polls and sociology are considered one thing, while outside they are not.)

Here's good article on this wishful thinking (you may try translating it with Google) written before the war by sociologist Lev Gudkov, who has been making polls since 1980s, and an interview with him. (Another one in English.)

There's a big debate among sociologists on whether or not they make questions correctly, and what kind of bias the methods have. So any layman's claim that this is just "not true" is just a sign of total ignorance. Like a football fan believing he knows better how to coach a team.

The good news is that they don't support it actively. But active resistance is not on the horizon.

Last edited by detail, Fri, 24 Mar 2023 11:08.

Here's another test: mtr to 188.122.74.149 takes on average 101ms on Ethernet provider, and 260ms on mobile.

I tried downloading this image (2.5 Mb) and it takes ~3s on Ethernet and ~15..20s on mobile.

I don't think that hosting provider throttles the mobile one, because I can be the only one in the whole country who downloads the image today.

2.5Mb will take at least 40 packets on IPv4 (max packet size is 65K). If they're downloaded in syncronous way, ping time plus slower download speed on mobile explain everything:

40 * 100ms = 4s
40 * 260ms = 10.4s

Add some seconds for download (on mobile it's ~1Mb/s, on ethernet it's like 5Mb/s), and this explains the difference. (If I'm correct about syncronization.)

Ethernet. 100ms. KZ is much better connected to NL (100ms) than to JP (2000ms). Plus, I don't see Moscow IX IPs in the route.


Mobile internet:

Last edited by detail, Fri, 24 Mar 2023 11:18.

Quote from Victor :

103.194.164.52 - JP
162.244.55.54 - US

Ping won't work, but you can perform an MTR towards them.

Mobile 4G in city center:



Apparently, the route to Japanese IP goes over Hong-Kong. US is routed via Moscow internet exchange (MSK-IX).

Give me please European server IP, to test it too. (And Turkish, if possible.)

Last edited by detail, Fri, 24 Mar 2023 04:58.

EDIT by Scawen:

Moved 4 posts to this new thread as they aren't really about the test patch but are about an investigation into the super-slow downloads experienced by some people. By the way, test patch D20 works with our web server to download mods from USA or Japan if you are in America/Asia/Oceania, which appears to work well for those who have tested it. But geographical distance doesn't explain the *extremely slow* downloads that some people have experienced. If you do get that, we may get a clue from MTR (My Traceroute) results, if you could post them here.

Please test to our different servers, along with some kind of rough estimate for how long mods usually take to download, in the official version D (and if it has improved in version D20).

188.122.74.149 - NL
103.194.164.52 - JP
162.244.55.54 - US

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks for the tracert. If you enable the new option in game, are you redirected to Japan? Does Kazakhstan count as "Asia" in this case, and if so, do mods arrive more quickly? Though it's a massive country, half way between Rotterdam and Japan...

I can't test right now, because of issues with Nvidia Linux driver. KZ is mostly connected to Russia, which is connected to Netherlands, Finland and Sweden. So I bet directing it to Japan will make things worse here.

If you have a set of addresses to test, I can sketch a simple Python script to ping/download things and show statistics.

Last edited by Scawen, Fri, 24 Mar 2023 08:51.

VPNs usually sit at internet exchange platforms, where many top-tier providers connect their networks. So those are fast.

Meanwhile people on the ground do have slow downloads.

For instance, I have to wait 10-20 seconds to load any photo from the news. Just checked the 20th anniversary page. The front image (RB4 on a banked turn) loaded 20s. Other photos took 10s each.

My traceroute:

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

Coup, Civil War, collapse of the country.. in my opinion, you share the skin of an unkilled bear too early. We are talking about the future in the current situation from which there are no prerequisites for any of the listed options. Which in my opinion is even more.

Roughly speaking, I meant the opposite: these aren't beyond the corner. Civil war started after a very exhaustive war, revolution and corruption in military/police.

The map looks gorgeous!

Quote from Racer Y :

So you're thinking some sort of coup will happen and it will be limited to only the very top levels of the gov't and the elites? It's possible. It makes sense that things would play out that way. But if that were to happen, they wouldn't have 3 years to settle things. And this would have to be limited to only the very top levels of power. The further down the govt pipeline this goes and the longer it takes to assert authority, the more likely things spiral out of control There's going to be all sorts of nations, not just mine and China's (maybe even yours), corporations and extremists that will want a piece of Russia. And if there's a power vacuum for too long things will get nasty. And then lets not forget Navalny. If he isn't executed outright or has a "fatal accident", he could use the vacuum to his advantage and empower the opposition movements into waging a civil war. I don't see the Russian Opposition and reform movements getting what they want peacefully. Especially when the people they are opposing would be looking at serious jail time.

But I do think we're overlooking something here. Where does Steven Segal fit into all of this?

I don't think it's a threat currently. For Russian Empire, it took 3 years to drain the economy, while converting for military production, and a vast draft of people to the frontlines (IIRC, it was about several millions), plus after the February 1917 revolution, the interim government continued the war, exhausting itself and its army further. So, at the end of such effort, sure, the control over armed forces was lost, and the October revolution met little resistance initially, but it turned into a civil war later.

Currently, Russia keeps internal forces, the draft is rather small and is done outside of big cities, to avoid big noteable riots -- and the masses still support the war, because for them it's still a TV picture. The economy isn't converted to military production, the govt has a pretty competent team of economists who keep finance, exchange rates and budget in ok state, and avoid taking money directly from the masses -- those economists seem to be the real backbone of Putin's authoritarian regime.

Regarding foreign countries, Europe decided to stop countries from capturing territories back in the middle of 19th century -- the Crimean war of 1853-56 was started to stop Russian Empire from capturing something near the Black Sea. And the last territory captures happened in 1970 between Israel and Arabic countries. (Plus, occupying any territory makes locals nationalists, which happened in West Ukraine taken over by USSR in WW2, and in East Ukraine now.)

If anyone wants some territory, they usually tell lost of grievances and narratives about it -- many thinkers in Russia were telling this of Ukraine, and speaking of restoring the USSR since 1990s. (Already in 1996 the parliament with Communist majority passed the first "decree" denouncing the agreements on dissolution of the USSR!) But I don't see this in case of China. They already have troubles keeping their North populated -- people move from there to South-East.

Lastly, Chinese business openly sets up lumber cutting factories and buys a lot of lumber from Siberia (devastating woods in vast territories) just by bribing locals, without any armed forces.

Regarding Navalny... well, if there happens a civil war and he comes out, IDK, he might get some daredevil followers, that's probable. But there are many more adherents of pure communism ideology among the lower classes and the military. Not the European "socialism" that scares some Americans, but rampant communism: no private property, centralized distribution of housing, food, centralized pricing, and so on -- the same thing that failed utterly in the early Soviet Republic in 1918-1921 (with several millions starved to death), and under Mao -- yeah, even a good deal of young people love the idea. BTW, Igor "Strelkov" Girkin (who took down the MH17 B777) is one of its most noteable proponents.

Last edited by detail, Sun, 12 Mar 2023 18:58.

Quote from Racer Y :

I miss Boris Yeltsin. He came here to Houston and wasn't nearly as impressed with NASA as he was the grocery store nearby. He seemed like the type of person you could have a beer with and go bowling. Putin, Putin, Putin. The problem with Putin is who's gonna replace him when the time comes? And for the Russian people my worry is how far down will the infighting resulting from that go? Will Chechnya try to break away again if Kadyrov gets whacked? Will Iran and China make power moves to have more influence in Russia? Will the oligarchs play nice with the west to get their boats back?

Historical parallels aren't a good tool, but you can see how involved parties interact if a situation repeats.

Analogy 1: Stalin destroyed all competitors and surrounded himself with sycophants, but when he died, his right hand Beriya, leader of the security services (supposedly his successor to then tradition, as he was organizing the funeral) was killed within couple of months. The fight for the leadership lasted 3 years, till Khrushchov finally won in 1956.

Analogy 2: The collapse and dissolution of the USSR happened when 2 conditions happened: (A) by 1989 the country went bankrupt (that's why they couldn't support puppet regimes in Eastern Europe), (B) local national elites became consolidated.

While (A) will likely be the case, (B) isn't seen on the horizon. Current Federal government took a lot of effort for the last 15 years to eradicate local elites networks, e.g. by firing local governors (by agreement or by made-up criminal charges). There is indeed some resentment to Moscow in many regions, especially national republics, but local elites don't look strong now. In the 1990s, Russia was broke for years, and yet nobody except Chechnya tried to separate.

Quote from LightBlazeMC :

Considering how long this sim has been around for, what is the most nostalgic memories you have of it?

The most memorable was getting my first bank card to pay for S1. First, it took an hour to commute to city center. Then I discovered the bank's site showed a wrong square, the house numbers were off a lot, so I had to walk a kilometer to the correct building. It was early december, and I had only a thin hat on my head, it was getting colder (-10) and I started to feel cold.

In the bank in 2003, you would sit down at a table or even come into an employee's room. They even gave me tea. Rather surprising treatment, when you're used to state banks' queues and crowded rooms.

Going back home, I took the first bus, which went in another neighborhood, hoping to connect to local buses, but they were absent. Had to walk 2 km to home, while it was already getting colder. It was -15 on our thermometer when I came home. The skin on my entire head felt like burning. I was scared I'd get sick with meningitis, but fortunately nothing happened.

Next month, guys from the city next to ours (200 km) learned that I can buy a voucher, they came by car, we met somewhere in the center (probably near that bank again), they gave me money and also 2 1L bottles of beer from their local maker. Nice and memorable. We have never met or written each other again.

Ну под таким названием должен быть Пассат-универсал.

Поў свіні, мех, бульбы, сала, самагон
Што не зайшло у багажнік залезе ў салон
Блокаў сілікатных поўненькі паддон
Палову ў багажник, палову ў салон

Ты не кажы пра новенкія джыпы
Жыццё - не мёд. Які базар-вакзал?
Але ў мяне выдатная машына
Фальксваген Пасат-універсал
ДЫЗЕЛЬ !

Езджу як Шумахер ці амаль як ён
Хоць перашкаджае загружаны салон
Tам Поў свіні, мех, бульбы, сала, самагон
І блокаў сілікатных поўненьки паддон

Я сваю машыну ўрэшце разгрузіў
Поўны бак саляркі у Слоніме заліў
Еду да Палякау паліва прадам
Грошы атрымаю і назад айда

Каму жанчына, а каму мужчына
Каму вярсаль каму універсам
А у мяне шыкўоная машына
Фальксваген Пасат-Універсал
ДЫЗЕЛЬ !

Last edited by detail, Fri, 13 Jan 2023 11:16.

Quote from Snoop.DriftEra :

-Isn't there a presumption of innocence before that fact is proven?

Presumption of innocence is needed to protect citizens from made-up administrative or penal charges, because they make a lot of harm to the society in general.

This is not the case when you accept something in the area of your responsibility. E.g. a stranger knocks at your door and asks to keep a bag for some days. You won't trust that person. Same case with LFS: it's other's content, but it's LFS devs who are liable for it. Makes all sense to be strict, rather than permissive.

Happy 20 years, developers! LFS made me have poor grades in 2003

But on the other hand it boosted my English, made me make some programming projects, probably taught some online communication etiquette. And of course, helped with learning to drive a real car -- I got the licence at 39, when for many it's hard to learn and be agile -- but it wasn't the case with me, thanks to LFS.

First collisions seem rather mundane incidents, but from 1/4 of the video, it looks more and more like Piran Moto Destruction Derby race, made me laugh thinking what would be if one would apply rules to those.

Thanks for the update!

I remember I implemented a simple collision check for air traffic controller sim (which was in JavaScript, and slow). Checking if point (plane) was in polygon (elevation at its level) at every tick was slowing things down noteable.

I tried adding a bounding box check before polygon, but that didn't help much with complex terrain, where many planes were always in some bounding boxes.

So I made a simpler check: initially, I calculated the distance to the closest terrain at plane's level. Then every tick I subtracted the travelled distance. If the remaining dist was below zero, then point in poly check ran, and distance too, again.

In the end, I used this distance subtraction approach + bounding box check + point in polygon check. (Recently I learned that point in poly can be simplified by cutting polygons in halfs vertically or horizontally, so point counts are reduced a lot.)

Last edited by detail, Thu, 16 Jun 2022 10:58.

Reading the beginning of the post on physics & graphics on separate cores, I thought, "if graphics only needs to read, then there'll be no race conditions", and turned out I was wrong a lot. I guess, even snapshotting needs some care and locks, because the graphics thread may read exactly when the physics thread writes.

Quote from sinanju :

Actually, the British Government regulations: "The Regulations impose financial, trade, aircraft, shipping and immigration sanctions for the purposes of encouraging Russia to cease actions which destabilise Ukraine, or undermine or threaten the territorial integrity, sovereignty or independence of Ukraine."
...
As far as the British regulations go, I would think a degree in Law would be more advantageous here than a degree in Economics.

Thanks for the quotes. In this context "Russia" seems to mean state or government. If someone with Law degree tells me that it extends to ordinary citizens, I'll trust his judgement.