The online racing simulator
Why do people think they are faster therefore they don't need to race for position?
1
(50 posts, started )
Why do people think they are faster therefore they don't need to race for position?
I was racing on the demo servers last night and some drivers who are clearly S2 drivers comes on and starts bullying slower people in front of them, who are on the same racing lap, to get out of the way because they should pass by default only cause they are faster. And if the slower racer in front tries to defend their position the faster guy just bumps them out of the way. The faster guy expects, just because the slower dude (whos on the same racing lap) is so slow that he should just let him pass!!

So I just want to say to these "faster", but ruder, racers that if you're faster then find a way through cleanly!! It's the proper way to race. Because you are faster doesn't mean the slower guys have to move out of the way for you. They are racing you for this position. They might defend but you have to find a way past without contact!! This is what makes racing fun and exciting!.

I admit I'm slow with a 113:88 lap time but if you are quicker then I will defend my line cleanly and fairly. But if you start bumping me then no matter how fast a driver you are you will always be a poor racer!! Fast don't mean nothing if you aren't a clean driver. So next time you are behind a slower guy look for an opportunity to get through instead of pushing the slow guy in front off the track. That's not racing!! Just look at some F1 races in Monaco where the faster guy is stuck behind a slower car but on the same racing lap, the faster guy doesn't push him off he either finds a gap through without crashing or waits for the pit stops.

So stop bumping us and find your way through!!!
#2 - Jakg
...because some people are absolute cocks and often see it hard to see out of the windscreen because their ego is so big.

Every sport that comes with testosterone has this problem...
This is exactly why I almost never race. If you're not the fastest, you will have a car on your ass forcing you to brake late and go wide, or else get shunted off the track if you brake normally. Happens on almost every server. I've even reported a few on CTRA for it, and was told it's classed as "racing contact". The bloody AI do a better job of not hitting me :rolleyes:

The worst is when the faster driver behind doesn't take an easy opportunity to pass, but waits to pass on a corner. I brake at my normal spot (which is apparently a gazillion miles behind that of the faster driver, as he would never expect a car to brake here...) and then get rewarded with a good 'ol shunt into the gravel/barrier/other car. And then if you retaliate in the same way (which you have to, admins won't do anything) then it's "revenge wrecking".

Can't wait for LFS to have some kind of safety racing a la iRacing. Then if you shove others off the road you'll never ever get anywhere

/rant
Some people do a pisspoor job at "defending" their spot though. Swerving left and right down the straight, just to be in the way. I'd gladly see to it that those people spin out, but seeing as I'm superslow, I've not yet had the opportunity.
Quote from CasseBent :Some people do a pisspoor job at "defending" their spot though. Swerving left and right down the straight, just to be in the way. I'd gladly see to it that those people spin out, but seeing as I'm superslow, I've not yet had the opportunity.

Hey, the AI cars do that swerving thing as well! I started a race with loads of AI cars and 3 xfr's spun themselfs out going down the straight at blackwood whilst trying to overtake the 5 xfg's i had put at the front of the grid. they were just swerving like crazy and once they started using opposite lock to keep control i could see what was about to happen!
Nobody ever said the AI cars were clean. In fact, quite the opposite has been whined about, several times, so I don't quite see the relevance.
I was attempting a jokey kind of post, as the AI cars act stupidly!
Mate i feel ur pain
im not extremely fast either my pb is 1:14:97 and sometimes its a pain in the ass to pass someone who is desperate to keep their position but in reality they are holding you up and the people behind the person trying to pass. Today when i was racing I was about to make a pass right after the straight only to find him pushing me off the track resulting in me slamming the wall
Sometimes people have to realise that they just arent fast enough to keep up and they might aswell let their position go, this happens in F1 as well though i cant remember who
Quote from buusap :Mate i feel ur pain
im not extremely fast either my pb is 1:14:97 and sometimes its a pain in the ass to pass someone who is desperate to keep their position but in reality they are holding you up and the people behind the person trying to pass. Today when i was racing I was about to make a pass right after the straight only to find him pushing me off the track resulting in me slamming the wall
Sometimes people have to realise that they just arent fast enough to keep up and they might aswell let their position go, this happens in F1 as well though i cant remember who

wasn't it that stupid kimi that slamed into force india in monaco? Or am i mistaking something
Quote from dougie-lampkin :This is exactly why I almost never race. If you're not the fastest, you will have a car on your ass forcing you to brake late and go wide, or else get shunted off the track if you brake normally. Happens on almost every server. I've even reported a few on CTRA for it, and was told it's classed as "racing contact". The bloody AI do a better job of not hitting me :rolleyes:

The worst is when the faster driver behind doesn't take an easy opportunity to pass, but waits to pass on a corner. I brake at my normal spot (which is apparently a gazillion miles behind that of the faster driver, as he would never expect a car to brake here...) and then get rewarded with a good 'ol shunt into the gravel/barrier/other car. And then if you retaliate in the same way (which you have to, admins won't do anything) then it's "revenge wrecking".

Can't wait for LFS to have some kind of safety racing a la iRacing. Then if you shove others off the road you'll never ever get anywhere

/rant

Without trying to be offensive, I think that if you have that problem on every server like you say, it just might be that the problem actually lies with you. True, this kind of behaviour occurs regularly, especially on non-adminned servers, but there's a lot of good and very clean drivers out there as well.

And about the CTRA reports, personally I haven't submitted a report yet that the admins didn't judge as I would expect them to. They are very just and I never have a single doubt that they will take the necessary actions. So the fact that the admin judged your report(s) as being racing incidents... I don't know... kinda makes me wonder how you drive and how you expect others to drive It is racing, after all, not cruising.

If you get shunted off the track when braking for corners that often, maybe you really are braking way too early?

What do you mean with "I almost never race"? What do you do then? Single player? Hotlap? Cruise? Drift? It's a shame, because there really is a lot of fun to be had in good clean racing. Maybe you just had bad luck But hey, as long as you're enjoying LFS in some way or another it's all good I guess
Quote from dougie-lampkin :This is exactly why I almost never race. If you're not the fastest, you will have a car on your ass forcing you to brake late and go wide, or else get shunted off the track if you brake normally. Happens on almost every server. I've even reported a few on CTRA for it, and was told it's classed as "racing contact". The bloody AI do a better job of not hitting me :rolleyes:

I get this so much.People coming up to a corner, right on my arse without having a clue as to how late or early I'm going to brake (or even worse, judging their braking point by looking at my brake lights) and then as soon as I brake, they go into the back of me and then start having a go at ME when we both spin out.

Funniest of all, someone span out in front of me without me getting closer than about 20m and then had a massive tirade at me for 'wrecking them'. When I said that I never even got close and someone else backed me up on this, they said it was my fault they span because I was 'intimidating them'.
I have gone trough those times too, when i was treated like scum and faster racers always excepted that u give way to them. That´s when I decided than I ain´t gonna just snallow my defeat and give way to them. It can be some big name, alien guy behind me, but I dont care. I kinda liked Montoya in F1. He didn´t care if he made some unbeliavable move on Schumacher or some other big name.
When ur on the same lap with someguy you have every rights to fight to keep your position.
As long as it´s done cleanly
CTRA has been my haunt now for about 3 months and tbh it's been nothing but fun for me. the racing (in the top 10) is usually very clean. i have raced from the back of the grid lots of times and tbh, if you know you're faster than say 12 of the cars infront of you, what's the hurry to pass them all in one lap? 12 "slower" cars infront (for me) means that i have a potentailly good race. the dozen other drivers also use this time to tighten their defensive driving and i love that.
if you think about it DL, you're leaving you line (drriving) wide open for a pass. what i got from your post was that you defend on the racing line. this leaves you wide open for some serious ass whooping on the brakes (inside). if you your setting the car up for a defensive switch-back, i wouldn't bother. they're one of the easiest moves for the passing car to block (tight line on brakes, tight apex and tight exit). join ctra (race1) tonight and we'll have us some fun races.
Quote from obsolum :Without trying to be offensive, I think that if you have that problem on every server like you say, it just might be that the problem actually lies with you. True, this kind of behaviour occurs regularly, especially on non-adminned servers, but there's a lot of good and very clean drivers out there as well.

And about the CTRA reports, personally I haven't submitted a report yet that the admins didn't judge as I would expect them to. They are very just and I never have a single doubt that they will take the necessary actions. So the fact that the admin judged your report(s) as being racing incidents... I don't know... kinda makes me wonder how you drive and how you expect others to drive It is racing, after all, not cruising.

If you get shunted off the track when braking for corners that often, maybe you really are braking way too early?

What do you mean with "I almost never race"? What do you do then? Single player? Hotlap? Cruise? Drift? It's a shame, because there really is a lot of fun to be had in good clean racing. Maybe you just had bad luck But hey, as long as you're enjoying LFS in some way or another it's all good I guess

agree. I used to have the similiar opinion, that thats always other fault, but with expirince, I learned to act in the pack properly, expect and think what others racers will do next and so on. CTRA 1 helped me a lot with that. "Idiots are all around, I should expect something stupid from them " is the rule that helps you to learn how to race cleanly in the pack, and not letting others to bump you off
I agree with the above statements, often its the fast (alien) guys that cause more trouble than the backmarkers. Just yesterday I raced on CTRA 3, WE rev. I was in a GT2 UFR, so in the last lap someone in a GT1 FXR came to lap me (after that steeper uphill S-curve), but instead of passing me on the right on the straight afterwards he bumped straight into me, repeated it like 3 times on the straight and eventually rammed me into the tires by the chicane. After the race he left instantly (I should have reported him:really
Quote from ACCAkut :After the race he left instantly (I should have reported him:really

You should have and you still can. That kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable from someone with a Platinum CTRA license, and he would pay dearly for it.

I have a mind to look up the replay myself and report him, because that kind of behaviour really is out of bounds and I'm surprised to see it happened on Race 3.
Quote from obsolum :Without trying to be offensive, I think that if you have that problem on every server like you say, it just might be that the problem actually lies with you. True, this kind of behaviour occurs regularly, especially on non-adminned servers, but there's a lot of good and very clean drivers out there as well.

I don't brake early as such, but I prefer to brake slightly earlier and get the power on sooner than everyone else. I'm not braking miles earlier than everyone else, maybe 10-15 metres, which is a fraction of a second at race pace. Not so far away that it would be completely unexpected for someone to brake. I should be allowed to brake where I like (within reason of course, I'd understand getting hit if it was in the middle of a straight), without fear of being shoved off the track.


Quote from obsolum :What do you mean with "I almost never race"? What do you do then? Single player? Hotlap? Cruise? Drift? It's a shame, because there really is a lot of fun to be had in good clean racing. Maybe you just had bad luck But hey, as long as you're enjoying LFS in some way or another it's all good I guess

I took a break from LFS, but I'm single player at the moment. Seems the AI are less likely to take me out. Managed a fully clean race with 20 pro AIs at SO2, great fun, went from back of the pack to 3rd.

If I can avoid getting hit by the AIs (especially at Pro level) I don't think my braking points are way off. AI aren't exactly known for gentlemanly racing


Quote from dadge :if you think about it DL, you're leaving you line (drriving) wide open for a pass. what i got from your post was that you defend on the racing line. this leaves you wide open for some serious ass whooping on the brakes (inside). if you your setting the car up for a defensive switch-back, i wouldn't bother. they're one of the easiest moves for the passing car to block (tight line on brakes, tight apex and tight exit). join ctra (race1) tonight and we'll have us some fun races.

I understand that out-braking is the preferred way to pass someone, but trying to outbrake someone when you're right behind them isn't going to work. If someone will outbrake me and come alongside, I've no problem giving them space and battling for the position.

I'm not exactly the fastest racer here, but I really can't learn to be better if it's impossible to finish a race. AI do the trick for me though
Quote from ACCAkut :Just yesterday I raced on CTRA 3, WE rev. I was in a GT2 UFR, so in the last lap someone in a GT1 FXR came to lap me (after that steeper uphill S-curve), but instead of passing me on the right on the straight afterwards he bumped straight into me, repeated it like 3 times on the straight and eventually rammed me into the tires by the chicane. After the race he left instantly (I should have reported him:really

Okay, just out of curiosity I went and looked up the replay.

1. He bumped into you two times, not three
2. He didn't ram you into the tyres or even off the track. He was way past you by the time you reached the chicane and you finished the race without further problems

It was totally unnecessary for him to bump into you, although I don't know if he actually meant it in a bad way, as he said ":-)" right after he went past you. Maybe he meant it more in a "pushing you along" kind of way seeing as you were in the slow and tiny UFR (compared to the FXR) or something Still, you could probably report him for it if you really wanted to but like I said, I really doubt that he actually meant to ram you out of the way.

So my opinion? People (in general) tend to exaggerate, and often perceive situations a lot different than the way they actually happened. Also, you should watch what you say on this forum regarding racing incidents because a lot of things can be checked by just about anyone. Especially incidents that happened on CTRA, because every replay is stored on their servers for a while and can be downloaded by anyone who wants to via their site This isn't the first time that I went and checked some things (be it via LFSW or replays or whatever) after someone made some claim or other, and found that they were talking out of their ass
Quote from obsolum :This isn't the first time that I went and checked some things (be it via LFSW or replays or whatever) after someone made some claim or other, and found that they were talking out of their ass

Indeed, though I just checked dougie-lampkin out on LFSW due to his statement, "I'm not exactly the fastest racer here...." and indeed, he is not talking out of his ass...

Just kidding DL, my times aren't anything to brag about (and you can look that up on LFSW too )
I never talk outta my ass

E: Although, I'm not the slowest racer either

Last race information: (19:58 - 24 Aug '08)
Host: CTRA UF-BR
Position: 2nd out of 7, doing 7 laps
Time / best lap: 15:40.270 / 2:11.230 (4)
Track and car: KY national, UFR

Guy in 1st had a Platinum IIRC, WAYYYYY outta my league. But 2nd isn't bad...for me anyway
Quote from obsolum :Without trying to be offensive, I think that if you have that problem on every server like you say, it just might be that the problem actually lies with you. True, this kind of behaviour occurs regularly, especially on non-adminned servers, but there's a lot of good and very clean drivers out there as well.

And about the CTRA reports, personally I haven't submitted a report yet that the admins didn't judge as I would expect them to. They are very just and I never have a single doubt that they will take the necessary actions. So the fact that the admin judged your report(s) as being racing incidents... I don't know... kinda makes me wonder how you drive and how you expect others to drive It is racing, after all, not cruising.

If you get shunted off the track when braking for corners that often, maybe you really are braking way too early?

What do you mean with "I almost never race"? What do you do then? Single player? Hotlap? Cruise? Drift? It's a shame, because there really is a lot of fun to be had in good clean racing. Maybe you just had bad luck But hey, as long as you're enjoying LFS in some way or another it's all good I guess

Agreed. I had to learn to keep the pace as to not get run over and hold positions. Not that I'm a great driver or anything, but I learned with lots of practice that a lot of the times I was becoming too nervous in traffic and getting it wrong. I had to force myself the slow my role a bit and analyze the situation to make a better decision.

I have a small testing and tuning server that anybody can join, even change the track if nobody and right now we are still working on our xfg and xrg cars. It is for S2 licensed racers. We pretty much use this server for setup development and dialing in our skills. Anyone is invited, but please don't park on the track drift etc.. there are other type servers for this kind of activity.

Server is NoTech Racing if anyone want to check it out.
I think this should be in the LFS manual
Read this it is the Gospel
I have only broken the main body up a bit for easier reading.

Racing Smarts AKA Savvy[/B]
There are a lot of ingredients in the recipe for winning races and series championships and all of them are crucial to success. That recipe includes a LARGE dose of racing savvy. You can do all of the right things preparing for the race but if you don’t do the right things during the race most of the time, your chances of winning it are very slim. Most people will preach about patience and after years of seeing it preached but very few people actually grasping the concept, I’ve decided to take a different approach. I’m not going to preach about patience; I’m going to preach about being smart.

First and foremost is to know your limitations and try your absolute hardest to never exceed them. You will, but you must try as hard as you can, not too. How do you know what your limitations are? Here’s an example, If you’re not absolutely positive that you can hold your line as you’re passing someone low going into a corner, you’ve exceeded your limitations. Even if you’ve successfully pulled off the maneuver, you still exceeded your limitations to that point. Every time you exceed your limitations but succeed, you’ll gain confidence until eventually you totally blow it and wipe out ½ the field which inevitably sets your confidence and your reputation way back, kind of like dieting by not eating. You lose weight for a while but put it all right back on because you’re starved. Confidence in racing should come just like everything else that provides true confidence, from your overall success, not individual instances of succeeding by exceeding. However, doing that offline against the AI is great practice.

Next, we need to discuss respect. Remember racing etiquette, if you don’t respect your competition, you’re not going to have much etiquette but even worse than that, you’re not very smart. There are lots of times when you’re going to have to have help from someone else on and off the track to win races. If you don’t respect anyone else in their endeavors to have fun with this, no one will respect or help you. If you think you can win races all on your own and enjoy this at the expense of others always taking and never giving, once again you’re not very smart and/or just plain masochistic. Now that we respect our competitors, and ourselves we can talk about the difference between being smart and being patient.

If you’re a patient driver, you’re pretty darn smart. However, while you have to be patient, you also have to be aggressive. You’re a savvy driver when you know when and how to do both. I see lots of fast drivers, lots of very aggressive drivers, a few patient drivers, and very few savvy drivers. Most people rely on their own common sense when it comes to racing smarts but common sense to one person is not always common sense to another especially when it comes to racing online. A savvy driver realizes this and almost always does the smart thing without having to really think about it. Just like after hours of practice, you instinctively do the right thing if you get into the corner a little to hot, your reflexes take over and you deftly maneuver the car back to where you want to be. A savvy this by sizing up the competition. Forget how fast they are in practice. How smooth are they lap after lap? How nervous do they get when you get right on their rear bumper? How well can they hold their line lap after lap? How well can they checkup if you slow a little more than normal going into a corner. How aggressive are they when they want by? Do they move over easily if they can tell you want by or do they run as hard as they can to stay in front of you? All of these things can be found out during practice and if you don’t take the time to do this, you’re not very smart. This is why most pickup races are such a wreck fest; no one knows each other.

Lastly, let’s look at the smart thing to do in specific situations: A driver you don’t know very well gets up to your B pillar on either the inside or the outside going into a corner, back out of it and let them have it. Maybe you know you can hold your line but do you know if they can hold theirs? Sure you can blame them later for not holding their line and causing the accident but that doesn’t get those valuable points back does it? Conversely, a driver you do know that can hold their line in the same situation does this and you know you can hold your line, what do you do? This depends on what’s smart for you based on the overall objective of winning the race. Do you abuse your tires racing him/her through the corner, if you only have 5 laps to go, abuse those tires J If you have 50 to go, the smart thing to do may be to let then have the spot.
This is a bit trickier, You’re in a pack of cars and you’re passing on the inside going into a corner with cars right above & behind you. You know you’re going to have to brake more to stay low and keep your line to pull off the pass. Do you go ahead and make that dive and take that chance? Almost never!!!! Why, have you ever heard of follow the leader syndrome? It’s difficult when cars are all stacked up to judge exactly where you’re at. If you brake later and harder than normal, the chances are good the person behind you is going to punt you into the upper deck even if he or she is a good driver. It’s imperative to be as smooth and as consistent as possible when in traffic especially going into the corners. If those around you want to take chances, back out of it and let them. You can wave as you pass low underneath that huge pileup. From the above 3 situations, you should get the idea that anytime you’re not sure what you, your car, or the other person is going to or can do, the smart thing for you is to be conservative or patient if you prefer to use that term. It doesn’t matter where you are at or where they are at on the track and how anyone else drives. There’s no rule that says you should be here or they should be there on any part of the track except during pace and caution laps. Regardless of what anyone else says, there is also no RULE that says anyone has to do anything on a racetrack except of course what’s mandated in the sim or by the league. Don’t ever assume anything. If you have to assume around drivers you don’t know on a racetrack, you’re exceeding your capabilities and even if it’s totally the other person’s fault when you get into a wreck, who’s really to blame if you ASSUMED they’d hold their line? You are!!! To drive this point home, say you’re leading the race and coming up on a lapped car really quickly going into the corner and you really don’t know this person, lets also say league rules state that lapped cars must let the leaders pass on the inside so you immediately move to the inside, go to pass and this person cuts right down in front of you and takes you both out causing you engine damage. Well, I hate to tell you this but you’re an idiot. You assumed this person read the rules and you also assumed that he saw you coming up on him 25 mph faster. Sure he was at fault but you don’t get your 185 points back for leading the most laps and winning the race. This is why I think a lot of people confuse patience with racing smarts. You can be as patient as a saint but if you expect or assume people you’re not sure of are going to do something, you’re just not very smart. Hmmm, this sounds a lot like defensive driving school. By gosh it is J Now the paradox, this is racing and if we drive patiently the whole race we’re probably not going to win. We have to drive agressively and take at some point in time but we have to be smart about it. The aboslute best way to do this is to do your homework and know the competition. Remember what we did in practice? We did some things to size up the other drivers. Take advantage full of that. Any time you can take and you’re almost positive that other person can and will do their part. Take! If you’re not sure of a person during a race, you have to take the time to size them up then. If you don’t have that time because you’re being pressured from behind, do what’s smart for you and your overall goals. Take the risk of passing or let the guy pressuring you from behind by and see what he can do with the guy in front. Do whatever is smart for you. If you take the risk of pushing a pass and the guy in front can’t handle it, he may be to blame but your decision wasn’t very smart. What it all boils down to is pretty simple, be aggressive when you know you can and be patient when you’re not sure.
Even when we’ve done our homework and we’re certain that we can pass a driver that will give us room and either of us screws up, that’s not stupid, that’s truly one of “those racing deals” and it happens to all of us. Laslty, don’t play headgames with yourself. Don’t use warp or justify to yourself that you were sure you could get by and both of you would hold your line when you really weren’t sure of the other driver or your own ability at all.

Again, the above is a draft and needs to be proofed. One other thing I'm going to add to this is more on blame. Blame is irrelevant, blame is a lost cause and worthless, blame is not worth your time or anyone elses. Also, I'm adding a section on common courtesy. It's not a rule but it's common courtesy that if a driver gets upto your door handle on inside to give them room. If the inside driver does not get to the door handle, he should back out and expect the other guy to cut down. If you're a lapped car and the leaders get upto your door handle on the outside, it's common courtesy for you to backout and give them the low line at apex. Having said that, if you don't know what the other guy is going to do, it's always correct to be patient and backout, if you're aggresive and the other guy can't handle it by not doing the proper thing or holding his line, you can BLAME all you want but who really gives a poop? Be smart and be savvy by never having to blame anyone because of you getting caught up in thier mistakes

Bob Stanley
__________________
i ran into this same problem a few days ago in a CTRA race
i was being lambasted for "wrecking"
a much faster driver couldn't get around me, so he attempted a bump and run, only to side swipe me on the way pat and spinning out
(lag and online issues caused a big spin)
In his view i side swiped him...i don't drive that way-
the next race the same driver was attempting a pass on the outside of a turn and i was passing someone on the inside...
it was close so i backed away... only to see the two of them side swipe eachother and by then i was up to speed and no kidding scraped an already dancing pair of XFG's- and i get threats of "i will report you" and such "wrecker!" they yelled
no i don't understand- everyone is racing (these were lap one incidences) why not give mroe room and back off to make the move later in the race? why can not every driver on lap one attempt to drive the line? i understand in sprint race (under 15 laps) everyone wants to get to #1 especially in CTRA where you do get points.
I am a bit frustrated- i did not have a problem the rest of the day on CTRA or any server.
my apologies to the gents in the wrecks (the loudest crier ended up going ahead passing me to collect 3rd place later anyway)
I did not try to do such.
but what is with everyone being so agro? and blaming? my worst enemy out there is the kerbs anyway, i keep flipping-
That's just often the mentality of the people racing on Race1. A lot of them think the race is won or lost in the first lap. It gets better in the higher licensed servers

I usually take it easy in the first lap, and don't try to fight off overly confident people who want to make a pass. If they're faster than me, either they'll move up in the field and they won't bother me anymore, or they'll go off the track a few turns later and they won't bother me anymore either. If they're slower than me, I'll just wait until the pack settles a bit - usually by the end of lap 1 - and I'll start overtaking the slower drivers. Makes for better racing, I think.
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Why do people think they are faster therefore they don't need to race for position?
(50 posts, started )
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