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Something [does god exist]
(428 posts, started )
Wikipedia has a good introduction to arguments for the existence of God (and to arguments against his existence).

I wouldn't call them proofs, because when you look closely, all those "proofs" are either based on circular reasoning or on a weird definition of god.
Quote from LFSn00b :This still does puzzle me too. If God put everything moving, then who put him moving?

Yes, that is the objection from the nonbelievers: the believers "explain" the cosmos with god's design, but that only works if god himself doesn't need any explanation. It is forbidden to ask "Who created god?"
Quote from Dajmin :God by his very definition must be the embodiment of all things righteous and good.

Just curious... where are you getting this from?
Quote from Jakg :According to my RS teacher "Day" isn't the correct translation - it merely means "unit of time". When the Bible we have now was translated it wasn't done literally, it was also made more readable, and so "Unit Of Time" -> "Day".

Then your RS teacher was lying to you A lot of 'believers' tend to re-translate the bible when they suss-out that it doesn't fit into the 'real' world.

For the ancient Hebrews, and the bible, a day is from sun-up to sunset, and the dark bit in between is called night. (See Genesis 1:5) Basically it is a normal 24hr cycle based on the earths rotation, just the same as everyone else uses.

That 'Unit of Time' thing is simply a cop-out, to try to explain that the world must have taken longer than the claimed 6 days.

---

As for on topic and Niko's strange 'provement' things. I've been involved with various religions for over 30yrs, and i can honestly say i've never heard those terms before Just sounds like new age hippie bullshit to me !
"All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again"
Mandatory reading!

Quote :Oolon Colluphid is the author of several books on religious and other philosophical topics. Colluphid's works include:
  • Where God Went Wrong
  • Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes
  • Who Is This God Person Anyway?
  • Well That About Wraps It Up for God
  • Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Guilt But Were Too Ashamed To Ask
  • Everything You Never Wanted To Know About Sex But Have Been Forced To Find Out
Colluphid is also shown as the author of the book The Origins of the Universe in the first part of the Destiny of the Daleks serial of Doctor Who. The Doctor scoffs that he "got it wrong on the first line". The reference was inserted by Douglas Adams, who was at the time working as the show's script editor.

Quote from Bladerunner :Mandatory reading!

Wasn't he the guy who got killed on a zebra crossing after proving God didn't exist?
Quote from LFSn00b :Well, i got back from school 30 mins ago and i am kinda confused.

Niko, it's OK to like boys. Being gay is very popular nowadays. You get your own music and film festivals and everything.....

Oh, you're talking about religion.
Quote from DieKolkrabe :Wasn't he the guy who got killed on a zebra crossing after proving God didn't exist?

No, he was the guy who got killed on a zebra crossing after proving that black was white

Quote :Oolong Colluphid is the guy who made a small fortune when he wrote the best-selling book "Well That about Wraps It Up for God," which central theme was the theory some thinkers have chosen to see as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn´t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don´t. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn´t thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. "Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo´s kidneys, but that didn´t stop Oolon Colluphid

Source: H2G2
Niko, have you read The God Delusion (it's sold as "Jumalharha" in Finnish, if Wikipedia is correct)? Regardless of your outlook on religion, it is an excellent book which I heartily encourage people to read .
Quote from Bob Smith :
Oh, you're talking about religion.

Well, we know what goes on with boys in churches. Choirboys anyhow ;p
Yes, "Jumalharha" would be a fine piece of reading...

I'm actually kind of surprized to hear you (other finns) talk about religion classes since I can't remember being thaught any of that god crap in junior or now in senior high (=yläaste ja lukio, am.) We just concentrated on real issues, such as religion as a science, ethics etc. But even if you had to study them the lutheran view isn't that awful. It could be worse.

What comes to the actual outlook of life, I consider myself an agnostic. I believe God could exist, even though it's unlikely since science hasn't been able to prove that.
#38 - w126
Providing proofs of the existence of God is just funny. Religion is not science. If you believe you don't need any proofs.
Even atheists may admit it's possible that our whole universe is just one of the simulations run by some civilization much more advanced than ours. We may be just characters (the dumb AI ) in a computer game used be some kid. If this is true then for any practical purpose (if any) this kid is our god.
Quote from Bladerunner :No, he was the guy who got killed on a zebra crossing after proving that black was white



Source: H2G2

Yep...that's the guy. I got the zebra crossing bit right
Quote from Mazz4200 :For the ancient Hebrews, and the bible, a day is from sun-up to sunset, and the dark bit in between is called night. (See Genesis 1:5) Basically it is a normal 24hr cycle based on the earths rotation, just the same as everyone else uses.

Actually, the length of a day has not remained constant, and was longer, in Earth's past (while it has continued to cool, and contract). In fact, the tsunami in Indonesia, a year or so ago, reportedly involved a decrease, in the length of a day, by a few microseconds (presumably, this was a result of conservation of angular momentum, following a subduction of a tectonic plate).

The tsunami was caused by an earthquake (in this case, undersea), which represents a sudden release, by movement, of built-up stress where tectonic plates had been forced together (cause of force: uncertain, but generally thought to be convection currents, deep below the surface). A "subduction" is a type of tectonic movement wherein the edge of one plate slides under the edge of another. The result may be a change of distribution of Earth's mass, such that more mass becomes closer to Earth's rotational axis (since a subduction generally represents a denser, oceanic plate's sliding under a less dense, continental plate); this represents a decrease in Earth's moment of inertia, and a consequent increase in Earth's angular speed, since the product of these, is constant. So, faster rotation of Earth -> shorter day.
Quote from Dajmin :Ontological
Doesn't really matter. God by his very definition must be the embodiment of all things righteous and good. But since he is also vengeful, he must also have a darker side. Because he did wipe out nearly everyone in the world via a flood at one point. Charming.

Lacking in charm as may be - but God by his definition is just - and, therefore, cannot let sin go unpunished - hence flooding. To be just is a part of being righteous.

I'm sure you wouldn't call the police unfair for locking up a criminal, would you? Same story, really. At the end of the day, there's no point in having laws if there aren't consequences for breaking them - there may as well be no laws, otherwise.

Quote from Mazz4200 : That 'Unit of Time' thing is simply a cop-out, to try to explain that the world must have taken longer than the claimed 6 days.



Quote from duke_toaster :Niko, have you read The God Delusion (it's sold as "Jumalharha" in Finnish, if Wikipedia is correct)? Regardless of your outlook on religion, it is an excellent book which I heartily encourage people to read.

I find this far more hilarious. Well worth the listen.

Quote from w126 :Providing proofs of the existence of God is just funny. Religion is not science. If you believe you don't need any proofs.

I think the world would be a better place if everybody ignored the teachings of J.C. and heeded the Word of J.L. instead:
Quote : Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...


You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

I'm reading the Bible. And boy is it dull! The boat catalog in Iliad was nothing compared to this lenghty boredom.

Take the ten commandments part. It's like:
"Here areth teh commandments! 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10."
And that's all.
Then it goes at lenght about what kind of materials and how the ark must be made and the hut where it's kept.
There is page after page about the bleeding hut! Compared to the one paragraph of the actual commandments.

If there is a god, he is bonkers.
There is no god.

Only Dustin.
#47 - SamH
Here I am, laughing at the US for making moves towards teaching creationism in state schools, and all the while it's been happening in Finland? Oh dear!
Quote from SamH :Here I am, laughing at the US for making moves towards teaching creationism in state schools, and all the while it's been happening in Finland? Oh dear!

I believe those classes are meant to be about all religions. Christianity, Islam, Budism, Hinduism, etc. Atleast that´s how the goverment wanted to implement those classes here but it didn´t go down very well with the public so I haven´t heard about that law anymore in recent times. The other thing is that I´m sure those classes would turn into Lutherian propaganda because only religious people would be interested in teaching those classes. And since the most common religion here is Lutherism then I´d guess most of teachers would be Lutherans. Maybe that´s what happened to Niko. I find it hard to believe that the Finns would implement mandatory Christian-learning or whatever you´d call it. I had a class about religion in the third grade. It wasn´t mandatory but I was young and stupid and thought it was so I took it. It was all about Christianity.

I´m an Atheist btw.
#49 - SamH
We still suffer from state-sponsored religious schools in the UK, and religious indoctrination is common in many of those christian "madrasahs". If religion had been preached at the school I attended, there would have been hell to pay. I took religious education but my teacher never suggested that god did exist, or said that god didn't exist. We were just taught different ideologies and their implications/historical ramifications. If we were taught anything, we were taught to question everything we were told and make up our own minds.. and that was fine by me. I'm agnostic, btw.. I don't believe it's possible to know if god exists or not.. I believe equally that god may exist and god may not exist, and that extremists in any respect are intellectual morons by definition.
Although R.E. was mandatory in my previous school/s, they never actually taught us christianity in high school at all while I was there. The main religions they taught us were Judaism, Hinduism and Islam. I'm not in any way religious, and as a post yesterday says the truth on how I feel, that humans make up religions for when we run out of knowledge, it gives us something to lean on when we don't know what's going on, that's how I feel about religion tbh.

I must state though I did attend the "lighthouse club" at the local Evangelical church, not because I thought God was real or anything like that, but because it gave me something to do on the most boring day of the week. I've never stepped into a proper church, and I never want to.

Something [does god exist]
(428 posts, started )
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