Quote from geeman1 :

Scawen had to choose one of faulty ways to do this and this one had the least amount of problems.

No. The start is left as it was with auto handbrakes. Only thing is that we can now move the car before the lights go green.

Nkpro has quite nice solution to this all: warm-up lap

Quote from Hyperactive :

No. The start is left as it was with auto handbrakes. Only thing is that we can now move the car before the lights go green.

Changing a gear is not a clear enough indication of wanting to move to justify an automatic not directly related handbrake disengage.

Quote from deggis :

That carnage excuse is BS... if it's too hard for some people to understand, that IF you have handbrake toggled, MAYBE you need to untoggle it before you can move the car. Or what? Is that too unlogical? Do you think LFS players are really so stupid because players have used to all this arcade-like aids and "full throttle, wait the lights & cross your fingers" starts without a even possibility to do a false start?

I don't get at all this "it will cause havoc for newbie players on the demo BL GP", maybe Scawen sees this from the money perspective or something, but we are still taking about game that tries to be a simulation. If it's too hard for some people to press one button that has logical reason they're obviously playing the wrong game.

edit

yes i do.

Quote from geeman1 :

Changing a gear is not a clear enough indication of wanting to move to justify an automatic not directly related handbrake disengage.

It is still better than a handbrake that just disapears when you start moving. Or as bad.

---
I wouldn't mind if the start sequence was something like 7 seconds longer and would include a short startup phase in the beginning:
Phase 1: pre-start
for 5 seconds a text is displayed on screen (toggleable off) that suggests you to apply brakes to take over the controls of the car. LFS notes if there is someone on the grid who doesn't do anything.
Phase 2: lights
After this the text disappears and shortly the lights start going towards green, revs build up and those with automatic handbrakes don't need to manually hold the car and those with realistic brakes use either handbrake or footbrake. LFS notes if there is someone on the grid who doesn't do anything.
Phase 3: start
Green light - lots of skidmarks etc... Those who have not yet reacted in any way are put to spectate. This is to get rid of people who go fetch coffee/watch p0rn and are not physically present when the start is happening. Their car would otherwise be still on the grid causing havoc.

This sequence makes it possible to have both ultra-hardcore option and arcade option usable and logical without making things awfully complicated. Those who want the arcade option have the automatic handbrakes and those with ultra-hc have to use the required controls by themselves. And imho there should defenately be some kind of reward for using realistic controls. You need to understand that the whole procedure of starts atm is still "a bit" arcade in one way: you don't just appear on the grid few seconds before green light.

In all honesty, with the current engine damage (and turbos) the way to start now is to floor the throttle, press clutch (button), put 1st in and wait for green light. When the green light comes you just drop the clutch and admire the tire smoke... it can't get any more simple. If adding a feature (or partially taking away) small part of this to make the starts 1% harder and 10% more real makes the starts to become mayhem...

I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again here:

I do not want auto-handbrake AT ALL. I don't want auto anything! I want to do the driving myself, not have the computer control it all for me. I don't want the handbrake engaged unless *I* engage it.

I think the "BL start line carnage" excuse is, frankly, a bunch of BS. It might happen when the change is first implemented, but people will quickly realize that they need to have their foot on the brake before they go to grid.

I really love LFS and think it's by far the best sim out there, but little things like the auto-clutch, auto-handbrake, almost non-existant damage, etc. really ruin the immersion of the sim. The sooner these things are removed, the better.

Quote :

I think he just rejected the idea of having to toggle it off. I can kind of see the point why. It could easily become one of those things you just have to before taking off. It would be automatic for people who have played before, but new players would be confused when they dont realize to take it off. It's confusing for the new players because it comes on automatically and if you don't know what that red light on the dash means you have no idea that the handbrake is on. The more experienced players would take it off by instinct and "forget" about it, it would add nothing to the actual racing.

I think this was Scawen's main point, and I didn't really think before posting in the wrong thread about this, but surely it's not unreasonable as a beginner to learn about how to start properly and be aware of the handbrake. You don't (or shouldn't) go online until you have a basic idea of the track you're racing on, and a proper start technique should logically come before any of that.. by the time you start racing online it should pretty much be second nature.

Quote :

IF you have handbrake toggled, MAYBE you need to untoggle it before you can move the car.

My mum used to get around the shops with the handbrake on all the time. I'm sure it would be hell for PB's though.

edit: it's a trivial matter, really.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Phase 3: start
Green light - lots of skidmarks etc... Those who have not yet reacted in any way are put to spectate. This is to get rid of people who go fetch coffee/watch p0rn and are not physically present when the start is happening. Their car would otherwise be still on the grid causing havoc.

It's better to have a small pop-up box asking if your participating in the race, yes or no, and have the default answer be no (the box times out after 10 seconds to the default answer).
Auto spectating cars who don't move on the grid wouldn't be necesary then, which saves a lot of code to write. Also, with this idea there the occasional dumbass who doesn't have his car in gear, or stalls it (maybe future patch?), is still standing on the grid, which happens in real life too.
But I've changed my mind, I'm actually in favor now of getting rid of all the automatic crap.

Firstly, my apologies to Scawen for posting a suggestion in the patch thread in its late stages, that was a bit silly on my part - I know there's enough work to go into patch X as it stands already.

As for the starts discussion, the only thing that would make them more interesting, and this should be kept optional because it would be admittedly unintuitive at first sight is the suggestion that was floating around long before the patch to use the brake pedal as the clutch at the start and have it automatically switch back to being the brake at some point (either ~5s after the start, or at the press of a button). The non-automatic handbrake option is just silly, IMO. What, you have to release one button as you pull the shift-up paddle? It's just a waste of buttons for people who don't have many and a nuisance. On the other hand, the clutch suggestion actually adds some skill to it and you can be faster by applying that skill or not bother and have it as it is now.

I can see why this was suggested, but "operating" a handbrake via a wheel button isn't adding to the realism (for me). In the same way that a button clutch adds NOTHING to the realism of changing gear. It's STILL automatic if you're using a button on a steering wheel, you don't do it, you tell it when to do it itself.

In my case I'd tap two buttons or release one at the precise moment I hit another, definitely no more realistic if you ask me.

In my opinion it's a fairly trivial thing, particularly in the grand scheme of things (i.e still magically appearing on the grid rather than driving to it). The important thing is that we have to react to the lights.

The other thread in the main forum got closed while I was typing this, so I'll just post it here:

Quote from Scawen :

I cannot understand at all that kind of statement, said by different people, things like "the automatic handbrake is ruining the starts in LFS". But never has anyone said any reason how it ruins it or makes it pointless. And it's beyond me to understand that.

Because now you can false start, but you still can't have a "bad" start. All that's needed is to rev the car to redline and then drop it in first gear when the lights turn green. Because of the auto-handbrake, drivers don't have to worry about holding the car with the brake and have zero risk of rolling on the start. Before there was no skill involved in getting a good start - you would simply hold the gas to the floor. All that's changed now is that you are required to shift into first once the lights turn green.

Quote :

You know, some races start on flat ground. And no handbrake is required. So, if the release of a handbrake is such an important thing in racing, and the lack of need to manually release a handbrake in LFS makes race starts almost pointless, does that mean, nearly all motor races in the world are pointless and have a pointless start, because they are on flat ground?

This is beginning to wind me up now.

I'm not trying to wind you up. I think you misunderstand my position. Right now in LFS starts are all the same and there is really no skill involved other than putting the car into gear when the lights turn green. There's no chance of rolling on the start line, no chance of stalling, no real chance of overcooking the tires, no chance of damaging the transmission, etc. Having the ability to perform a false start is a good step in the right direction, but it just magnifies the other things that separate starts in LFS from starts in real life. I think the auto-handbrake is one of those things. The next small step towards realism would be to remove it.

Quote :

I can tell you what would ruin LFS for me - and that is, the need to press a button on my G25 every race start. That would be totally unrealistic, because handbrakes in cars are not buttons. I can't see any reason why anyone would say that it's a good idea, to replace one unrealistic thing (auto handbrake release) with another equally unrealistic and also very annoying thing (pressing a button on the G25 every race start). Maybe I'm missing something.

This is not what I'm suggesting at all. I think that the handbrake should not be engaged unless the user engages it (using a button, key, etc.). If the driver wants to use the handbrake on the start line, they can do so using a button on their controller or a key on the keyboard. I, personally, would probably not bother as it would be simpler to just heel/toe away from the start line. Some people have suggested that the handbrake should be turned on at the start of the race and that the driver needs to press a button to turn it off before they can leave the start line. I think this is the wrong approach. The handbrake should never be engaged unless I specifically engage it, just like the clutch should never engage unless I specifically engage it. When the car starts out on the grid it should be in neutral, no handbrake. From there it's a simple matter for users to learn that they need to have their foot on the brake when they join the grid to prevent rolling. It might be confusing at first, simply because it's different than it was in the past, but people will adjust very quickly because they know if they do not, it will cost them a drive-through.

Sorry. I didn't mean to turn this thread into the auto-handbrake thread. But, I do think this is an important point not only from a realism standpoint, but because the auto-handbrake removes a bit of skill from getting a good start.

Quote :

"operating" a handbrake via a wheel button isn't adding to the realism (for me)

Well I've been pressing keys all this time, admittedly I didn't really think about it that way.

Quote from mikey_G :

It's better to have a small pop-up box asking if your participating in the race, yes or no, and have the default answer be no (the box times out after 10 seconds to the default answer).

I think this is the perfect solution. Another option is that you are not joined to the grid unless you have your foot on the brakes. In either case, you prevent people from being put on the grid when they've gone AFK and you let them know "you're about to go to grid, don't let your car roll".

Quote :

But I've changed my mind, I'm actually in favor now of getting rid of all the automatic crap.

Welcome to my world.

Quote from Blackout :

So why or why not should the automatic handbrake be removed?

I'm gobsmacked this is even being discussed the autohandbrake is there because this is a computer simulation were the start point is the grid. You don't drive out and do a warm up lap then take up your grid positions. You just appear on the grid at a restart.
And on public servers with pick up races you often get restarts with some not yet expecting a restart. I.e. talking over their shoulder to the wife or some such thing and then you realise oh shit the race is starting. If you didn't have autohandbrake you would be rolling into someone So it makes sense to have the handbrake on when you are positioned at the grid. After that it's entirely up to the individual how they go from there.

For me I'd never dream of actually doing a handbrake start, I stopped doing them some 20 years ago I only really see people using autohandbrake starts if they don't have a wheel anyway and for them I think it should stay.

Sure, operating clutch and handbrake by a button is unrealistic, but so is steering by a mouse or keyboard, so that a BS reason.
But I guess it's needed to choose the middle ground. Keep the handbrake and clutch automatic for the people who want it, but make it work slower. This way people who understand the anatomy of getting the car of the line quickly have a small time bonus.
This way the n00bs (probably will get flamed for that) and the people who prefer realism can live happily ever after.

Just want to +1 Cue-Ball again in the proper spot this time. No need to quote or anything, I think you said it very well it made it clear. Hyperactive's
ideas (I think it was him...) were also very good, I just think that there should'nt even be the "arcade type" option. Understanding to use the brakes to not roll foward / backward isn't over the top, it's just common sense That being said, if common sense was a common commodity in the average server, I wouldn't have bent suspension at T1 on a regular basis

Also, I would think that controlling something via a button is by it's very nature more "realistic" than not controlling it at all. Using a button for the clutch is still more realistic than an autoclutch simply on the premise that YOU have to do it, just like you would in real car. Follow the logic: doing something you would have to do in a real car via a strange control, is still more realistic than not having to do it at all.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Welcome to my world.

I see your point about realism, but at the same time what makes LFS a great game/sim is its ease of use online. The ability to chat be relaxed and have great races is the x factor that LFS has over every other racing game/sim I've tired. So if that sort of realism was implemented I think it should be a server option for leagues etc but not the norm on public pick up races.

Quote from Glenn67 :

And on public servers with pick up races you often get restarts with some not yet expecting a restart. I.e. talking over their shoulder to the wife or some such thing and then you realise oh shit the race is starting. If you didn't have autohandbrake you would be rolling into someone So it makes sense to have the handbrake on when you are positioned at the grid.

Mikey_G's suggestion takes care of this, with the additional benefit of spectating people who have stepped away when the race unexpectedly starts.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Follow the logic: doing something you would have to do in a real car via a strange control, is still more realistic than not having to do it at all.

Well said

Quote from sinbad :

I can see why this was suggested, but "operating" a handbrake via a wheel button isn't adding to the realism (for me). In the same way that a button clutch adds NOTHING to the realism of changing gear. It's STILL automatic if you're using a button on a steering wheel, you don't do it, you tell it when to do it itself.

In my case I'd tap two buttons or release one at the precise moment I hit another, definitely no more realistic if you ask me.

In my opinion it's a fairly trivial thing, particularly in the grand scheme of things (i.e still magically appearing on the grid rather than driving to it). The important thing is that we have to react to the lights.

Well, not everybody have wheels, and most of the people (if not all) who have wheels don't have handbrakes. I mean, there's a limit that you reach pretty quickly when you're talking about realism in something that is, first of all, not true. This is a simulation, so what you want is to have things work in the best way possible (i.e. the closer to reality), but you can't get rid of the screen, buttons up to a certain point.

I, myself, uses mouse and I don't feel like I miss so much of the game even without a wheel. I understand it all falls down to opinion, but what we're seeking here is to make it fall down all the these opinions, and if possible, leave people choice. You can't force everybody to have the best equipment there is.

Quote from mikey_G :

Sure, operating clutch and handbrake by a button is unrealistic, but so is steering by a mouse or keyboard, so that a BS reason.
But I guess it's needed to choose the middle ground. Keep the handbrake and clutch automatic for the people who want it, but make it work slower. This way people who understand the anatomy of getting the car of the line quickly have a small time bonus.
This way the n00bs (probably will get flamed for that) and the people who prefer realism can live happily ever after.

A BS opinion is what you are actually saying. Thanks for that, although I don't think using mouse and keyboard steering as an example of realism was the right choice.

"The people who prefer realism" "people who understand the anatomy of getting a car of line".

Remember you are talking about pressing an extra button on your wheel!

The button clutch argument goes on under a different name. Still automatic unless you have an analogue controller assigned to it!! You want a boost for having a manual choke control button on your wheel in the UF1000?

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Mikey_G's suggestion takes care of this, with the additional benefit of spectating people who have stepped away when the race unexpectedly starts.

Indeed, that was also a great suggestion IMO.

The bottom line is all that has to happen is some intermediate step to make sure that people are ready to put their foot on the brake and join the grid.

Quote from sinbad :

A BS opinion is what you are actually saying. Thanks for that, although I don't think using mouse and keyboard steering as an example of realism was the right choice.

"The people who prefer realism" "people who understand the anatomy of getting a car of line".

Remember you are talking about pressing an extra button on your wheel!

The button clutch argument goes on under a different name. Still automatic unless you have an analogue controller assigned to it!! You want a boost for having a manual choke control button on your wheel in the UF1000?

First of all, it wasn't pointed towards you, but I knew I would get flamed anyhow, so no prob there.
And to be honest, pushing a button is still more realistic then not doing anything at all.
And I don't really get you last point, and the BS thing I've said?

Scawen, no need to be upset The majority here are realism freaks, so you gotta understand us and our moanings
I think that this no automatic handbrake would be a really great addition to this amazing new starts, since you implemented them already, then go for it to the end..
A button, a button it is, it doesn't matter, in real life, you would also put it down veru quickly so it is not THAT important to have the travel like a clutch, the button will do just fine.
The point is, it will make starts that much realistic, and would add a great immersion, and it would aquire some skill sto start of properly and some concentration (like it should)..
And as majority said, maybe they would start with a heal-toe technique, or with the handbrake, it is up to the driver, and that choice would really be interesting, and it will add some aditional adrenalin heart beats to the starts with all the people reving it nervously, thinking will their start would be good, etc.. Think about it

Quote from boosterfire :

I, myself, uses mouse and I don't feel like I miss so much of the game even without a wheel. I understand it all falls down to opinion, but what we're seeking here is to make it fall down all the these opinions, and if possible, leave people choice. You can't force everybody to have the best equipment there is.

So what are your thoughts then - would it be too much to ask for you to need to use the brake button while on the grid? This would not force anyone to upgrade their hardware.

Quote from sinbad :

You want a boost for having a manual choke control button on your wheel in the UF1000?

Everyone knows the cars in LFS are prewarmed - just look at the temp gauge

Quote from Cue-Ball :

but little things like the auto-clutch, auto-handbrake, almost non-existant damage, etc. really ruin the immersion of the sim. The sooner these things are removed, the better.

Some players, like i have no pedals bought. Without pedals is it impossible to drive without auto-clutch. I will start an other thread with some suggestions for mouse-steering. For better mouse steering should something made. Maybe mouse steering is just a beginner-option to bring people to buy a wheel and pedals.