Quote from SamH :

Greb, I agree with you. The problem is that "public", without additional "you can.." and "you can't.." is too easily understood to simply mean "have at".

Sounds like it should become standard to bundle "public" skins with a license of some form. Perhaps a creative commons license, with the appropriate link explaining it.

I have NOT accused anyone of theft, or demanded anything.

I was just pointing out that if they had approached me about it, I would quite happily have converted the skin for their use. They probably would end up higher quality this way as well.

I don't know...maybe I have become used to the amount of mutual respect shown throughout the community here, it's just a bit dissapointing thats all.

If you make a skin based on a real car without giving credit to the designer of real car livery then why do you expect a different behavior from fellow LFSers?

This wierd kind of double standard that I have often seen on the net, not just in LFS, never fails to astound me. People feel entitled to use whatever they want to "create" content on the internet, but want to be credited all the time when people actually take this work that wasn't original in the first place.

Quote from J.B. :

If you make a skin based on a real car without giving credit to the designer of real car livery then why do you expect a different behavior from fellow LFSers?

This wierd kind of double standard that I have often seen on the net, not just in LFS, never fails to astound me. People feel entitled to use whatever they want to "create" content on the internet, but want to be credited all the time when people actually take this work that wasn't original in the first place.

Would your take on this be different if it was a 100% original skin ?

For me, it doesn't matter, the same amount of time/effort go into them. Any long term member of these forums knows of the 'unwritten rule' that you shouldn't edit other peoples work without permission or give credit...as Sam said above, it's common courtesy.

Anyhow, PMs have been swapped and the matter is closed.

Quote from J.B. :

This wierd kind of double standard that I have often seen on the net, not just in LFS, never fails to astound me.

No matter how astounded you become it is not a double standard. It takes a lot of work to create a quality skin even if the design is inspired or directly influenced by a real world livery. If you think that making a good skin is a simple matter of copy and paste then you are poorly informed.
If one person takes a lot of time and effort to produce a good result and then another person takes a lot of time and effort to produce the same result then there is no conflict and no logical argument. But when the second person just grabs your hard work and edits it with some simple junk then it is quite rude. Sure, go ahead and make the same livery from scratch and nobody can complain unless the design is copyrighted by the artist, but ripping their hard work and calling it your own is way out of line. It's not like Bean0 took a photo of a car and pasted it on an LFS skin. He created the graphics himself and took the time to make it look right.

It is also wise not to assume that every LFS skin is produced without permission from the copyright owners of logos or designs, or to assume that every decal you see is not exempt from free non-commercial use.

It isn't illegal to reproduce the Mona Lisa with your own hand on your own canvas, plenty of artists have painted their own copies of real artworks and even sold them as copies or prints. But taking the real painting and signing your name on it is certainly not acceptable or legal. That's the difference right there. I have a Monet copy hanging in my lounge room, painted with real paint on canvas and it is impossible to tell the difference between the original and the copy. It is also a perfectly legal copy and not signed by Monet. Corporate logos and company names are not neccessarily protected from the act of reproduction for non-commercial purposes.
Additionally, copyright laws are not universal. What may be illegal in one country is perfectly acceptable in another.

Quote from Bean0 :

Would your take on this be different if it was a 100% original skin ?

Big difference IMO. Because then there is nobody you could possibly have failed to credit.

Gunn: I never thought that copying a real livery was a simple task and I personally don't think there is anything wrong with doing so. I also don't in anyway condone taking and editing a skin and signing it as your own work. And I frankly have no idea about legality of using copyrighted logos etc.

All I was saying is that I often see people demanding credit for content that isn't 100% original when they didn't give any credit themselves. This is what I mean by double standard.

Or put this way: If every real world designer who would deserve some credit from skin makers were to come here and post his concerns, how messy would this forum be?

Quote from Gunn :

...for non-commercial purposes....

I'm too tired to get into this at the moment, but this is a really common misconception, that somehow, if you give something away, it'll be magically exempt from copyright and trademark laws.

It won't be.

You might get away with stating that its for artistic or research purposes though.... depending on which country you're in...

It's a shame that people within the LFS community will steal things so obviously. I went online over the christmas holidays for the first time in 3 months, in the first server I visited I saw someone with a skin that looked like one of my older ones. I thought nothing of it to begin with, there must be loads of carbon-fibre FOX skins. But when I got closer I noticed the small Union Flag that I put on all my skins by the driver, and the yellow mirrors, and the size/weave of the fibre. It HAD to be my skin.

I asked the driver where he got it, and he said "I got it from a skinning website", I said "That's funny, I made that skin and it was never public", he said "Really? It's nice". I let him carry on, because I have no plans to ever use it again, but I told him he should think again before using skins from his skins_x folder, or any that aren't his.

I'm used to my current FOX skin (camo) being stolen, which gets on my nerves, I love that skin.

In this instance it comes down to ethics. Did you get permission to use trademarked logos on your skin? I suspect not, and for that reason you would legally not have a "copyright infringement" foot to stand on. Since you could then be held liable for copyright infringement yourself. The copyright laws, as far as they apply to the graphic design industry in most countries, state that if the designer of the "copy" can prove that they have altered at least 30% of an image, the new image is their own work. Since I have not seen the team's skin, I don't know whether that would apply here. But the legalities aside, I think that in the spirit of the game, the team should definitly have asked for your permission, or at the very least acknowledged that they have used your skin as a starting point. Surely, if you have a team of people, at least one of them would be able to create something decent and unique? As a graphic designer, I would not feel very proud of racing for a team that was not dedicated enough to create their own unique image, or at least get somebody to design something specifically for them. Thank you for highlighting this issue - I will be very careful with any wording that accompanies any future LFS skins that I decide to make and upload.

Today i had a PM from Bean0 saying
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Hi there
It has been brought to my attention that your team is using skins that look as though they are an edited version of one of my public skins.
Just wondering your position on this.
Cheers
Bean0
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The PM had links to his NUFC skin and my ConeDodgers skin
I answered with
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Sorry, but I have no real comment to make that will change anything, the first skin in red and black was sent to me by a user and even though it does look a lot like the skin you show if rather different, and their are a lot of skins that are similar to this.
If the person did get the idea from your skin then i dont think he did anything wrong as all skins are downloaded into the skinx folder and as such are public.
Most of the fine detail on your skin is for NUFC and on our the skin background is normally carbon, also i think the rear is very different.
I am not sure what you expect from me or what you expect me to do even if he did copy your skin idea.
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BeanO cam back with
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Thanks for replying.
I had no way of knowing how you came to be using the skin and was curious, and it does bear a remarkable resemblance to the NUFC version (the 2 decals on the upper right of the bonnet seem unchanged).
If you want, I would be happy to do some high res versions for you. All I would want in return would be my web address on the skin somewhere.
Obviously I can't stop you using the ones you have at the moment if you choose to, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.
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I replied
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I have just asked the guy who sent me it and he assures me he did it himself, but when i put his and yours together some of it is in the same position so i think someone is telling me a bit of bullshit.
With 100's of versions out there i dont think i could ask people to put on your website as its hard enough to get them to put on our own.
hrttp://www.conedodgers.co.uk/gallery shows some of the versions.
Lets swap website links
Also being an Aston Villa fan if i had known it was a NUFC skin there is no way we would have used it (lol)
All the best
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Bean0 replied
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You'll be wanting us to beat Birmingham tonight then? :P
Glad this hasn't turned into a slanging match though, it really wasn't my intention.
As far as I am concerned the matter is closed, happy racing.

My comments

I would like to thank BeanO for his understanding but think i should comment with the following points

1) If a skin is made by one person and someone changes it, removing the names etc and then sends it to another person as thiers, how can anyone be sure.
2) As the skinx folder is the easiest way to look at skins, and the devs have not made these encrypted this will always be a problem. We had a huge bust up between the [MG] team and new LFSer they other week over the use of a skin
3) I fully understand that bean0 most likely made the NUFC skin but I have had an email today from another person saying in fact he made the orgional.
4) All the skins have copyright issues, Bean0's from NUFC and mine from him, MG Racing from MG Blah Blah Blah
5) ConeDodgers would have asked permission if they were aware
6) LFS is a game and we all take it much to serious.
7) Does it really matter as who is ever going to take legal action on such a point.

Well done to beanO for his attitude

it is good to see that you were able to reach an amicable conclusion in this matter.

i knew i had seen the general layout before somewhere, i just couldn't put my finger on it, Lister skin looks good


my skins don't have any copyright issues

benefits of owning your own business and logo LOL

Quote from ev0 :

The copyright laws, as far as they apply to the graphic design industry in most countries, state that if the designer of the "copy" can prove that they have altered at least 30% of an image, the new image is their own work.

Is that right? Would like to have some way of verifying that if you have a link of any kind (professional interest....)

I was always under the impression that 'recognisablility' is the only prerequisite for an infringement to happen. This is certainly true in the music industry, where there is no threshold: a sample might be nanoseconds long, but if its recognisably taken from copyright material, sort out a lawyer....

Quote from ev0 :

The copyright laws, as far as they apply to the graphic design industry in most countries, state that if the designer of the "copy" can prove that they have altered at least 30% of an image, the new image is their own work.

Don't know about the laws in th UK, but in Germany (and probably most of the EU) you'd have to distinguish between the copyright (actually certain different rights on the work, but I'll just call it copyright to not cause any further confusion) of the original creator and the new copyright of the creator of the altered work. So, while it is true that somebody who alters somebody elses work can have an own copyright to this altered work, that does not mean that he is allowed to use the original work for his altered work without the permission of the creator of the original work*. It's very logic, if you think about it. Also, I don't believe that any law of any country would state a certain percentage to determine whether some work is one's own.

But actually, I would never think in legal terms about something like skin-ripping in LFS. But common social rules apply imho.

Edit: *) Unless the original work is merely cited in the altered work, but that's a different topic again.

Quote from nihil :

Is that right? Would like to have some way of verifying that if you have a link of any kind (professional interest....)

I was always under the impression that 'recognisablility' is the only prerequisite for an infringement to happen. This is certainly true in the music industry, where there is no threshold: a sample might be nanoseconds long, but if its recognisably taken from copyright material, sort out a lawyer....

I would have too look it up again. The reason I know this, is that it was taught in a design and advertising ethics class while I was studying many years ago (and not in the UK, I don't know what the UK laws are). The perception of what would constitute a sufficient change in a design is entirely subjective, and therefore difficult to prove or disprove, unlike text or music, where plagiarism would be blatantly obvious. Hence all the lengthy legal battles we had to refer to as case studies...

I only mentioned this because 'legal' was mentioned earlier in the thread - and to illustrate that it would probably not be applicable in this instance.

Every design has an influence from somewhere. In a perfect world, a designer would sufficiently disguise the origin of their design, but that is hardly ever the case, due to the cycles of fashion (just look at all the water drop vista-looking logos popping up all over the place now as an example.)

The issue of 'recognisability' is mainly applicable to trademarked material rather than copyrighted material.

I always try to be unique and creative - even if it is not as well received as being fashionable would be.

eg: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=18092

e

Quote from ev0 :

I always try to be unique and creative - even if it is not as well received as being fashionable would be.

eg: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=18092

e

Wow, you must be even more evil than Skeletor. (for the uninformed: Ali G quote)

skeletor was my hero - I hated the fact that he-man always beat him

Yeah, he definately was cooler than a guy in pink tights.

Quote from J.B. :

Wow, you must be even more evil than Skeletor. (for the uninformed: Ali G quote)

FPMSL i remember that one