Quote from JTbo :

Ah, there is not anything fun at overtaking if it is done by pushing poor fellow racer to grass or wall, whole thrill of online racing comes from overtaking, proper tactic, making fake attempts letting braking late or braking early, quite often I find that other driver that I press is driving out without me even touching him, that is odd

I think that winning is quite meaningless for me, it is all about attack and defence, success or loss, no matter I enjoy what I do. Sometimes it takes few laps to adjust to other drivers style, only by then I start overtaking if other driver is anywhere near my times, it is not the pray, it is all about hunting

I'm not very fast driver and I make mistakes quite a lot, but always I do my best to not hit others, wish to see others do this too.

I know why i hit the wall without ppl touching me, just pressing me.
It's couse I can't take another line than what I have learned to drive fast, hope learn all the lines/tricks but i think it will take time.

Quote from col :

Any move that involves forcing someone onto the grass is by definition not clean, and is breaking at least one rule out of any set of reasonable cornering rules.
If you are overtaking, the simplest and most basic rule is that it is your responsibility as aggressor to ensure that both of you get through the corner safely.... If the other guy ends up on the grass because of your overtaking move, then it's your fault, and the move was dirty not clean.
The only way to fairly get him onto the grass is to pressure him until he screws up and slides wide - no contact required

Now, I'm not saying that the red mist doesn't descend even on the best of us occasionally, just don't kid yourself that this can ever be a 'clean' move.

cheers
Col

By clean I meant more a non-contact overtake, than totally acceptable behaviour. But if I ever get pissed enough to perform such a maneuver (thats why I said "I could imagine doing.."), the car being lapped must have done something really rude blockings and therefore I could justify myself to pull off that kind of dirty tricks.

BTW this is one example of ""forcing"" someone to grass without being in fault. You can ignore the texts, the public (some stcc drivers and clerks) already kinda voted that the blue car wasn't in fault of white's crash.

for me it depends...

i would never bump someone i was racing against, even if they were a lap down.

however, in the case of mid-race joiners who either do not understand or do not care about blue flag, who have caused more than one crash due to their dangerous driving, and who cannot be passed safely, it sometimes comes down to a decision between voting to kick and giving a small nudge to push out of the way, and tbh, i think it's less rude, and gives them more opportunity to learn, to give them a nudge than to kick them off the server.

There are too many people who want to win or place, and don't consider it a worthwhile race if they don't. See how many people give up and pit if they even spin off! They won't rejoin and work their way back up to fifth or sixth. So it's no surprise that people ram their way past backmarkers, (who can, let's face it, be very annoying!)

I try to pass new drivers cleanly. But imo there really are not any widely accepted passing rules. I usually stick to whoever comes up to a turn first and/or on the ideal racing line should get to go first. So many times on AS2 on that second apex I'm ahead and on the preferred racing line and someone will try to pass on the inside and end up taking us both out as he slides high and runs into my car. Drives me nuts. I've been in that position and I always let off the gas and pull up behind.

Some n00bs I end up pushing off the track when they're 2-3 seconds off pace yet try to aggressively run a line and block/cut me off. It should be common courtesy when you're new to a track/car that you be gentle and let faster drivers pass without having to fight for it.

i would never bump any becuse its just not right even if he is slower.

any way i had some one last night when i was racing he was in my slipstream on the big BL1 straight but he keeped bumping in to the back of me and would not overtake i was getting anoyed and when we just about to go in to the corner at the end of the straight i go the turn and it knocks me of the track as well as him coming off to and then blames me for it as it was my fault but i cant see how it was me.

oh it was lol oh well i just guess it how other peaple race.

knight Jade

Quote from frokki :

..
BTW this is one example of ""forcing"" someone to grass without being in fault. You can ignore the texts, the public (some stcc drivers and clerks) already kinda voted that the blue car wasn't in fault of white's crash.

_Looks_ to me like a clear case of the white car being run into the barrier by the blue car. Obviously approaching the turn where the incident happened, the white car has more than 50% overlap and is on the inside - so the blue car should yield the apex, but doesn't. Looking closely you can see that both cars are pointing at the apex, suggesting that the blue car could take a wider line if it wanted. I am surprised that any 'officials' would see this as a 50/50 'racing incident'
(Of course, I would want to see a proper replay before condeming anyone)

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall anywhere on LFS where the flags are explained. The reason I bring this up is that a blue flags mean different things to different people. I personally race in the UK in MSA clubman races (MaX5). Therefore I follow the rules in the MSA 'blue book'. As I recall (I don't have the book to hand) all the blue flag means is that a faster car is approaching or trying to overtake. It does not mean you have to let that car behind pass. Moving on to F1, governed by the FIA, the blue flag rule is quite different. If you pass more than 3 blue flags without letting that car behind pass you will be penalised. This needs clarifying.

As for contact, all forms of motorsport (excluding bangers) is non contact. This included karting. And, being a clerk of the course for karting myself, gaining an advantage using contact of any kind has to be frowned upon.

Finally everyone needs to remember this is only a game! Some 'serious' drivers simply need to take a chill pill. I can't believe I've just posted this since it can all be summed up with chill out - apologise - forget it and carry on.

Quote from knightjade :

i would never bump any becuse its just not right even if he is slower.

any way i had some one last night when i was racing he was in my slipstream on the big BL1 straight but he keeped bumping in to the back of me and would not overtake i was getting anoyed and when we just about to go in to the corner at the end of the straight i go the turn and it knocks me of the track as well as him coming off to and then blames me for it as it was my fault but i cant see how it was me.

Thats called bump drafting, and is a legitimate technique, helps both drivers to faster times, and is a good way to catch a runaway leader, however there are enough LFS drivers who kick up a stink about it that it's probably best avoided except with friends..... And then of course there are accusations of cheating if you do it with team mates... can't win...
The big problem with bump drafting is that if the guy behind gets it wrong it takes them both out, and there are too many eager but unskilled drivers out there... I used to bump draft all the time on the blackwood back straight, and had very few 'incidents', then the anti bump drafting lobby appeared and spoiled my fun illepall

I was thinking ... i think alot today...
We are all racers and want to have clean and fun racing, would it be impossible to setup som guidelines what we follow and learn new racers to follow when talking about passing and blue flag.
I know there has been alot of discussion about what is right and wrong, but somehow we (community) should find a way to compromise a nice guideline in overtaking and what to do and not do on lfs race tracks.
Maybe this is utopia, but it would be very nice to have a common understanding between racers.
(maybe it's just me who doesnt know what is common knowledge...)

All IRL racers have these guidelines/rules, dont they?
Does all race classes IRL have different guides/rules?
Nothing in common?
Could we take a rule from real race class that most of us can live with?
I think BLUE flag meaning and overtaking guides would be a good start...
What do you think?
Is there guidelines that I have missed? (where can I find them)

I dont like to talk about rules, becouse then we have someone like me screming "You didn obey the rules!!" and that will ruin everything...

I was going to say If it were me in the blue car, I would have tried to alow enough room for the white car (by reducing throtle thus increasing grip or "dabbing" brakes) and continued racing with the insde line into the next turn, far better to have laps and laps of close fighting than binning someone off

As for contact I believe racing should be ZERO contact there is no excuse for nudging/tapping/ramming any other car especially if they are infront of you blue flag or not.

This said I found myself at AS2 XFR the other evening and coming into T6 (last hard right) dived quite legitimatley down the inside of another car, side by side we entered the apex and I had 2 wheels on the kerb almost over it still the car turned into me with horn blowing as if I had nudged him I pulled ahead out of the apex giving loads of room and made the place, I felt obliged to hit the sorry key even tho I was not at fault just to clear the air so to speak, but reading this thread made me remember.
My point I suppose is try to remain fair and race hard, but if contact is made no matter whos at fault its far better IMO to remain calm and not to start spamming or voting theres always the next race to think about.

I have to agree with whoever wrote earlyer in this thread lead by example,in S2 servers make clean passes or go race on the demo servers.

SD.

Quote from col :

Thats called bump drafting, and is a legitimate technique, helps both drivers to faster times, and is a good way to catch a runaway leader, however there are enough LFS drivers who kick up a stink about it that it's probably best avoided except with friends..... And then of course there are accusations of cheating if you do it with team mates... can't win...
The big problem with bump drafting is that if the guy behind gets it wrong it takes them both out, and there are too many eager but unskilled drivers out there... I used to bump draft all the time on the blackwood back straight, and had very few 'incidents', then the anti bump drafting lobby appeared and spoiled my fun illepall

aaaa right thanks for that bit of information shame that it went wrong or i could of got a new pb

I would never ram on purpose.

but, back in the demo days, I spun coming out of the chicane at BW and I was trying to make my way up the field, and there was some guy who had no control of his XRT and was losing the backend at every corner and down the straights (not drifting btw) and I followed him for a full lap and there was no way I would pass him with out being taken out it was that bad, so as he fish tailed, I give him a small tap on the real to get him out my way.

Afterwards I felt a little guilty. Was I in the wrong.

and yes, the noob was the one overtaking, refering to your question

Personally, I don't like to ram someone. But... If I'm fast some day, but every time when I'm on pb course a noob gets in the way, I'm not going to get off the throttle if it's already the fifth time this happends (especially if they just entered the server in the middle of the race).. Then I just take the corner as fast as I can with the risk of ramming him and myself out. But at that moment I'm willing to take that risk, yes.

Well i go every week to the kartingtrack (indoor team) and they now there they don't have to use the flag when we r riding but if i wanna pass som1, sometimes they just let me pass, but the hard ones i give them a bump like they told me to do because they said im to good so if they don't pass me just give em a bump (not to hard offcourse ) and if i let som1 pass i just point my finger to the direction they have to pass me if they can catch me:rally_dri

Just thought I'd add my two pence worth to the noob debate...

I was on a public server last night when some poor new guy got a real earful after causing a crash and saying sorry. He left without another word. This is not the way to treat newcomers to our sport! I just hope this guy didn't leave for good. I know it's annoying when your race is ruined by incompetent driving and I know that people will say 'learn offline'. But come on guys, show a bit of tolerance. These are not league races. Encourage the new recruits. Congratulate them when they get their new PB's and thank them when they let you past. That way we might have more racers and a bigger choice of populated servers in the future.

A former Noob.

I think it all depends on the situation.

If I was lapping someone (like that ever happens!) and they made absolutely no effort to let me past I would take the corner as normal, irrelevant of where they were. Assuming that the reason they're slow is running wide at bends, I'd reason that if they clipped me and spun it's their own fault.

But if they just happen to be slow, driving with respect and just can't let me past (narrow section of track/difficult corner section) then I'd keep them in front until the next safe overtaking opportunity.

Of course with me this is all theory, because I'm way too slow to ever blue flag anyone I started with. The only time anyone sees a blue flag with me in their mirror is if they start a lap or so behind me

Quote from goode400 :

Just thought I'd add my two pence worth to the noob debate...

That's got me wondering if I was the admin. Someone last night went barrelling into T1 on the wrong line, out-braked himself and made a bit of a mess of quite a few people.

The guy apologized, said he was having difficulty getting himself together. At the same time, I said something along the lines of "Either clean it up or you'll be off this server!" Our text kinda crossed, mine landed 2nd, and a few moments later the guy left the server.

Been worrying that the guy was a newbie ever since

sooner or later the noobs will eat the wall anyway. so there is no need to force them to do so.

I try my best to pass them cleanly even if they are wreckers! If they are a noob as said, then they will be slow! Its best to keep it clean, even if you loose a win out of it or a position!

I think there's a fine line between letting noobs rampage around crashing & bashing people (& probably laughing at the caos they have caused)

or putting your foot down & scaring them off.

Some of them show to much respect & leave servers, some show none at all & hoone around laughing at people taking it to seriously.

As in Sam's case above I would say that was probably a bit harsh especialy if it was a first offence. Sometimes it hard to call was it an honest mistake "Sorry guvnor" or intentional wrecking?

Some people take LFS far to seriously, I was recently reported to the wreckers barricade for nothing more than a light tap caused by lag & the powers that be handed me a warning. illepall This is absolute madness .

I think we all need to remember that LFS is only a computer game (albeit a very good one) & to think before we act.

There just is no excuse to bump other cars out from track, ok sometimes small bumps can happen, but it is not good if one purposely bumps to other car, very bad sportsmanship at least.

This attitude that slower car should give way is quite bad thing too, sure if car is blueflagged he should not block pass and if possible accelerate bit slower out of corner, but it is not absolute rule that you should drive on grass or go spectate if there is faster car going to lap you. This is of course if you are on race, but if you entered to track when race was on, then you must go to grass well before other are near, also it is very bad mistake to be in such situation, that should not happen in first place.

I have lost quite many times lead because of slower car at front of me, usually it happens to be that I catch slower car in such place where overtaking is not safe so I loose bit time and driver behind me catches us bit later where is safe place to overtake and he can easily overtake us both as he has greater speed. But certainly I'm not blaiming slower driver for this, it is my fault, I did failed to match my speed so that I would catched slower driver in place where overtaking would been possible. Bigger part of racing is tactics and planning than lapping fast laptimes.

But I really don't care about winning, it becomes boring quite quickly, much more fun to race from position at middle of pack

Well anyway, don't bump the noob, it is rude

its important to be able to realise when you've been beaten in a corner and when blocking or passing is safe. these are things that come with experience and common sense.

maybe if newbies should do a little banger racing to get an idea of how to spin people out. and then they'll be able to recognize what's dangerous when racing cleanly if they are intelligent. then again, they might be able to figure it out without the banger racing if they are...:doh:

everyone gets frustrated sometimes. maybe they got wrecked repeatedly and just snap when they get hit again and take revenge. its best to just take a break from lfs when it gets to that point.

Sorry double post, belived I could delete it = ((((

Quote from Gabkicks :

everyone gets frustrated sometimes. maybe they got wrecked repeatedly and just snap when they get hit again and take revenge. its best to just take a break from lfs when it gets to that point.

+1