Nah... i humiliated him enough.. Kinda feel sorry for him now...
I wonder how come hi didn't erased my signature, because it contains "his name - owes me a 1000 euros", and link to that cool video with modified DFP drifting...
Nah... i humiliated him enough.. Kinda feel sorry for him now...
I wonder how come hi didn't erased my signature, because it contains "his name - owes me a 1000 euros", and link to that cool video with modified DFP drifting...
Don't worry, its pride and stubborness is the problem here.
I'm a GT4 to LFS covert. One is fun, one is a sim. No prizes......
But the Nordshliefe is worth it alone. Arguably the most challenging racing circuit on the planet. 13 odd miles and 176ish corners takes some mastering plus the rendering is spot on compared to the "real" thing.
If only LFS could.......
I'm a GT4 to LFS covert. One is fun, one is a sim. No prizes......
But the Nordshliefe is worth it alone. Arguably the most challenging racing circuit on the planet. 13 odd miles and 176ish corners takes some mastering plus the rendering is spot on compared to the "real" thing.
If only LFS could.......
Tell your friend to get in his car and violently throw the steering wheel left and right while travelling in excess of 160kph. Then ask if it's anything like GT4 
or just show him this thread..
@Don - that was really amazing; do you have more of these? Nice quality, nice shots.
Yes, that was impressive. I just watched it, and it immediatly made me want to play LFS.
If the GT4 guy isn't impressed with this, he's probably not really interested in the idea of a 'sim' to begin with.
On the other hand that's a bad idea and it just might make his prejudices even stronger. I hope this doesn't lead to 10 page arguing about drifting but in my opinion showing drifting in LFS is just a way to highlight the tyre physics in a negative way.
And you can "drift" in GT4 too.
Or then he doesn't understand much about racing physics at all so it might be that he only sees the 'stupid looking fantasy cars' instead of flexing tyres and suspension movement.
And for god's sake don't show LFS to him without Car Sound Remixer. Sounds are probably the first thing along with the no real cars/tracks dilemma that puts him away and completely pointless even to try explaining why the sounds are like that. I would also try to convince him with some other PC sim. Is he against all of them too or only LFS?
take a Corvette Z06, go to Tsubuka, with N1 tires, in any hairpin MASH the throttle and see if there's any oversteer you can induce.
that's the biggest moment in GT4 that I feel the physics is off.
that's the biggest moment in GT4 that I feel the physics is off.
take him to a track day!
the problem is he is not resourceful enough to understand what car dynamics really is, for that you first have to inject some real world reference.
but in the end, not everyone see physics as the no.1 important feature in car racing games (hence the concept of racing sim is just out of the window)
get him to try and do a donut in gt4, then show him what they should look like in lfs.
If the guy can't see it and doesn't get it, there's nothing you can do. He's gonna see things the way he sees them. What floats our boat regarding physics and feel isn't going to make any difference to someone who just doesn't comprehend that stuff.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't change the fact that it has a brain the size of a pea
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't change the fact that it has a brain the size of a pea
Get him to watch the TopGear episode, where Jeremy drives the Honda NSX on Laguna Seca in real life and in GT4, and tell him to listen to the comment about GT4 
Could you tell me in which season that takes place? I'd love to see it
Anyway, the guy has yielded to the fact that GT4 simply isn't the game it's hyped up to be through marketing, and that some of the physics are ''odd''. He said that LFS was a better simulator, but to him that does not make racing fun. To me this was the point of realisation that he was just defending the game he likes best. I drive with my mind, he drives with his heart. In LFS I can find the exact spots in a track where I lose to somebody else, and by driving behind somebody I can find a weakness and use it against them. These are things I can't experience in GT4 since they're either impossible through technical issues, or a combination of that and the fact that the game can't be played online.
Then he did claim that GT4 was a better game overall, and although I agreed with him just to end the argument, I know in my heart that I can never say that sincerely, even after being a long time GT fan
LFS has taken my heart, and reading replies like in this thread confirm that with the cool community
PS. Let me know in which episode of Top Gear that happens.
You can show him some videos of real racing, WTCC or FIA GT would be best. Say him "Look carefully how the cars are making it through the corners." Then show him first turn on AS Nat, driven in XRR or FOX. Or better let him to drive himself if possible. That will show him how extremly hard is to keep under the threshold of grip. Maybe you can give him some basic physics explanation about what are the tyres doing.
As last show him the way the cars are "cornering" in GT4. It always makes me vomiting when I see that crumpling at apexes.
I had the same "problem" about a 1,5 year ago, LFS heartbreaking ForceFeedback shown itself to be a great persuading method. When my brother felt that dynamic of suspension, tyres and steering, he admit that LFS is kinda more real than NFS
As last show him the way the cars are "cornering" in GT4. It always makes me vomiting when I see that crumpling at apexes.
I had the same "problem" about a 1,5 year ago, LFS heartbreaking ForceFeedback shown itself to be a great persuading method. When my brother felt that dynamic of suspension, tyres and steering, he admit that LFS is kinda more real than NFS
Season 7, episode 6 and you can find the Laguna sega part at the trusty old youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9s-R4HgZA0
Thanks
I did a similar sort of vid tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsXST-cTc5c
It's not as high quality as the Don's, but at least you don't have to listen to Coldplay.
(kidding)
Well, IMO, people dont throw hatred towards GT4 or Forza because I'm assuming you guys think the same about Forza. Now, since I've got an XB and no wheel for it (only using my ultimate thumb ) so its difficult for me to compare Forza to LFS. As far as GT4, well, since I dont have a PS2 and most of my friends here are into wrestling games (wont they ever shut up about it ) and football games (Pro Evo 5 & 6) so none of them would have GT4. IMO, you have to look at it in this way, dont blame the developers that the game doesn't have the same physics as LFS because the developers want to design a game where they can get realistic as possible "WHILE" being considerate to the gamer who may not have a wheel to use so that little factor there plays a HUGE part in why they make the cars react to certain situations. Now, for me, I think Forza is a very realistic driving game and I have been told that its physics is better than GT4 so Forza IMO is quite good but the thing that makes me think "WOAH! that car should've spun, yet I can still hold the slide 
illepall) so its a bit weird when it comes to sliding physics. Just a little note btw, I want to say that when people like Sony and Microsoft say that these games are "the most realistic simulations", they do that for business reasons because I mean, whats the point in saying "driving simulator" and thats it? wont attract anyone. So, your friend there is one of those people who saw that and said to himself "OH!!! it says its the most realistic driving simulator EVER!!!" so he buys it and he falls again for Sony's trick. So thats how I look at it, and dont worry, LFS STILL RULES!!!!
) so its difficult for me to compare Forza to LFS. As far as GT4, well, since I dont have a PS2 and most of my friends here are into wrestling games (wont they ever shut up about it ) and football games (Pro Evo 5 & 6) so none of them would have GT4. IMO, you have to look at it in this way, dont blame the developers that the game doesn't have the same physics as LFS because the developers want to design a game where they can get realistic as possible "WHILE" being considerate to the gamer who may not have a wheel to use so that little factor there plays a HUGE part in why they make the cars react to certain situations. Now, for me, I think Forza is a very realistic driving game and I have been told that its physics is better than GT4 so Forza IMO is quite good but the thing that makes me think "WOAH! that car should've spun, yet I can still hold the slide illepall) so its a bit weird when it comes to sliding physics. Just a little note btw, I want to say that when people like Sony and Microsoft say that these games are "the most realistic simulations", they do that for business reasons because I mean, whats the point in saying "driving simulator" and thats it? wont attract anyone. So, your friend there is one of those people who saw that and said to himself "OH!!! it says its the most realistic driving simulator EVER!!!" so he buys it and he falls again for Sony's trick. So thats how I look at it, and dont worry, LFS STILL RULES!!!! When I look at those youtube GT4 videos and compare them to rfactor videos, I get the feeling that GT4 is more realistic. The car just seems to handle, turn and move more realistically. I still remember when I first played the first GT and I was amazed how good it looked on replays. Of course the physics weren't really that amazing but at the time it looked damn good. Everytime I watch any rf videos I get the feeling that the car has no mass, suspension or tires. Oh, but, well, anyways...
Anyways, GT4 isn't too bad. When you have to make a game work on pad, you just need to make some adjustments. And the GT4 isn't even the worst case of "realism"
Anyways, GT4 isn't too bad. When you have to make a game work on pad, you just need to make some adjustments. And the GT4 isn't even the worst case of "realism"
GT4 is indeed a very nice Racing Game. When you have a wheel, switch off the driving Aids and use Normal Road Tyres in the Setup the movements of the car seem quite authentic and would have been called a Simulation if it would have been released for the PC in the mid-90s.
But the driving physics and the whole environment are years behind any modern PC Simulation. And its not only driving physics, its Multiplayer, its Sound, its accurate Graphics, AI, its Replay Mode...
Try to drive a Race in GT4 from the 6th Place and work your way to the front. Doing that realisticly without contacts with the AI cars is impossible. They will ram you. It's annoying racing the AI when they do not see you at all.
In LFS, netkarPro or NR2003 you drive a simulated dynamic vehicle around a static track.
In Gran Turismo you steer the track around the car. This Simulation method from the 80s is still used on console type Race Games. You do not really steer the car, you drive the track around the car. The car is static.
Also, the cars in console games like Forza or Gran Turismo do turn around not by the direction of the front wheels, but by the middle height axis of the car.
There is no tyre on the road simulation, after you have steered the corner to the car, the car turns around the corner by the Axes of its height, not by the direction of the front wheels. This is specially seeable in the Replays were cars turn around sharp corners in a very odd way, they turn by there height-axes, not because of the direction there front tyres are looking.
This 80s Racing Game style programming is still beeing used thats why Hardcore Simulator Fans and Racing Schools cannot be bothered to buy several 1000 Dollars worth of Steering Wheel, Pedals or H-Shifter for a Game like Gran Turismo 4. The car simulation is so basic and simplified that it wouldnt make much sense, so they run there Simulator on complex car Simulations.
Comparing that with Simulations like LFS where even tyre flexing gets simulated, or NR2003 where the developers had inside information from Goodyear about the behaviour of Race tyres and track accuracy where even the real drivers practise with it, is pointless.
GT4 is a very good Racing Game, perhaps the best on consoles. LFS is the most popular Online Racing Simulation in the World.
They are both awesome in there own way.
But the driving physics and the whole environment are years behind any modern PC Simulation. And its not only driving physics, its Multiplayer, its Sound, its accurate Graphics, AI, its Replay Mode...
Try to drive a Race in GT4 from the 6th Place and work your way to the front. Doing that realisticly without contacts with the AI cars is impossible. They will ram you. It's annoying racing the AI when they do not see you at all.
In LFS, netkarPro or NR2003 you drive a simulated dynamic vehicle around a static track.
In Gran Turismo you steer the track around the car. This Simulation method from the 80s is still used on console type Race Games. You do not really steer the car, you drive the track around the car. The car is static.
Also, the cars in console games like Forza or Gran Turismo do turn around not by the direction of the front wheels, but by the middle height axis of the car.
There is no tyre on the road simulation, after you have steered the corner to the car, the car turns around the corner by the Axes of its height, not by the direction of the front wheels. This is specially seeable in the Replays were cars turn around sharp corners in a very odd way, they turn by there height-axes, not because of the direction there front tyres are looking.
This 80s Racing Game style programming is still beeing used thats why Hardcore Simulator Fans and Racing Schools cannot be bothered to buy several 1000 Dollars worth of Steering Wheel, Pedals or H-Shifter for a Game like Gran Turismo 4. The car simulation is so basic and simplified that it wouldnt make much sense, so they run there Simulator on complex car Simulations.
Comparing that with Simulations like LFS where even tyre flexing gets simulated, or NR2003 where the developers had inside information from Goodyear about the behaviour of Race tyres and track accuracy where even the real drivers practise with it, is pointless.
GT4 is a very good Racing Game, perhaps the best on consoles. LFS is the most popular Online Racing Simulation in the World.
They are both awesome in there own way.
Forza seems (to me) to have tyre on the road simulation, it doesn't seem to be very advanced but there's quite a few things in the game suggesting it atleast exists.
Comparing these console "sims" to LFS or NR2003 is indeed pointless, the console games aren't even trying.
Where are you getting this infomation from, Have u looked at the source code? for [GT4]; regardless, its dumb to think that the developers would rather Move the whole Track Data And all Sprites instead Of the 6 or so cars.
GT4 Is a sim as is forza, Problem is they are what i call low precision sims. They may not simmulate certain parts [Tire Temprerature] which affects the whole sim as a whole, but its only when u really push the sim the short commings arise.
Considering the the hardware Gt4 is on, its a Excelent job of a sim.[Remember ps2 was designed in late 90es] And they somehow got 1080i our of it
To the original poster i suppose u can use this statemeant from the creator
"To be honest, I can't really say the [original PlayStation] or the PlayStation 2 were able to sufficiently represent the realistically modeled physical world we wanted [in previous Gran Turismo games]," Yamauchi said. "With the PS3, we will be able to perform true physical modeling for the first time."
Get him to drive the RS Focus, or any other powerfull FWD car, marvel at the awesome power-on oversteer LMAO.
Get him to drive the Fiat Turbo coupe thingy, marvel at the way that car has NO grip and just sits there bouncing merrily away LMAO
Get him to drive the Fiat Turbo coupe thingy, marvel at the way that car has NO grip and just sits there bouncing merrily away LMAO
Are you kidding, ahahahahhahahaha 1080i from PS2? wtf are you talking about
*sigh* help me formulate the inferiority of GT4.
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