I think xoatik has it pretty much summed up....

"That the "hardcore simulation" types are fast to the gun to shoot down any feature suggestion that could be implemented and "makes sense" in a computerish/gamish/virtual environment way (like the neverending bickering over the ghostcar yes or no topic) while there are issues that should normally make them pull their hair if they are as "hardcore" as they say they are"

Dan,

Yeah I just read it now, makes your intentions a bit clearer . But he also answers the statement himself. The obvious hair-pulling flaws have been done to death already. Discussing that stuff would be like collecting a speck of bone from a cremated horse, extracting the DNA, cloning and then killing it for some serious dead horse beating.

LFS is not realistic. It's just vastly more realistic than any other sim/game, and has intentions to replace every unrealistic thing, where possible, with something more realistic.

There are aspects of the LFS that are approaching realism, and there are aspects that aren't (e.g. see Vains first post at the top). These will be looked at one day I'm sure, and the ratio of realistic:unrealistic will go in favour of realism.

I'm well aware of the limitations of LFS from a realism stakes, and in some respects I'm GLAD LFS has some unrealistic features to add some fun. It's a fine balance between adding pointlessly unrealistic features (Ghostcar) for the sake of it, and adjusting the realism of something to improve playability.

Long Live Live For Speed

Quote from tristancliffe :

I'm well aware of the limitations of LFS from a realism stakes, and in some respects I'm GLAD LFS has some unrealistic features to add some fun. It's a fine balance between adding pointlessly unrealistic features (Ghostcar) for the sake of it, and adjusting the realism of something to improve playability.

Well - you can always use an "unrealistic" feature for a "realistic" cause.

For example, the way I use the Ghostcar mod:

1. Set it to display the line a "pro" used. The braking can be seen in red.
   
2. Go in editor mode and place cones at the braking points and chalk marks at the apices.
   
3. Turn off the ghostcar.

That way I try to simulate a "training" session of sorts without trying to immitate the other driver's lap 100%. A slightly lenghty process but it's alot like looking at the line you'd see in AFS or f1perfview only in-game...

Would I be able to do that without the ghostcar mod? Sure. Only it would involve some extra Alt-Tab work going between apps.

Quote from xaotik :

...

I think the whole point about the Ghostcar discussion was this: we already have the Ghostcar mod, so why should Scawen waste time implementing the exact same thing? Especially if it's a very controversial and definitely not fundamental issue. The sound engine, for example, is a different thing. CSR is nice, but I'd rather have that in LFS itself.

Delete the minimap and stop trading with setups. Thats realistic

Realism is just a subjective illusion. No point in arguing about what's real and what's not. Directions of developement on the other hand can be discussed. Arguing is just silly.

Real life (from my subjective point of view) is just too much of a mess. (Everything feels like a big mess when body temperature is above 38...)

Point proven

LFS is 'realistic' enough for me, the casual gamer. I think that if too many elements are implemented then perhaps the CPU load will be too great for the majority of the lower-mid range users to enjoy the game. Sure, properly simulated damage, tires, brakes, engine sounds(tho pretty important IMO), diffs, pits stops, and various things to have while racing (ie:minimap, outside car view, gap times, automated starts etc...) would all make this game more realistic, they might not make it a better 'game'. *cringes at that word usage*

Dont get me wrong, I'd love to see all of this implemented in due time (read:long time) I'm quite ok with the occasional race and drift session as is. More is better but greed is sinful

wow, i've been here since aug 2004. *oh the memories*:lovies3d:

i like lfs as it is right now. It is as realistic as possible can with the current engine (i think) and without loosing the part of comfort which mostly makes the game "unrealistic" but allways in a favourably way for everybody.

If i would like to have a "realistic game" i would go outside get a race car to have some fun on a given track. But lfs is still a game so theres no way to get real realism at all into lfs. No matter how much you would improve the game there would be at least one factor remain that reminds you that you are playing a computer game: your eyes are locked to your monitor and your hands are connected to a controller. Also some games allready offers a hardcore mode. So to everybody that wants to have as much realism as possible should only join the "hardcore mode servers" everybody else could stick to the current version or something simular.

Right now, lfs seems to me like a fair simulator everybody can use without having the hardcore equipment. Ergo, the more realism will be added the less people would be able to play it. So as pointed out above (hardcore) i would say theres a need for more options for the server admins to choose from and to decide how much realism is needed on the local server which may end this discussion.

Live for Speed: Online Racing Simulator (not Online World Simulator)

OMFG so many people are complaining about nothing yea sure one day all of the thing like are not good like the starting system but everything takes time e.g. making the right system to get it to work could get weeks then it needs to be tested for hours on end then tested for bugs then fine tuned to be 100% ready for the public and that could takes weeks or months to make right to make lfs more realism

P.S. Danowat if this is bugging you so much learn how to make programs and then fix some of the flaws simple as that and forget everything does not happen overnight and other things are more important then lfs for the Dev's at the moment so just wait and be patient

@Pickard: You're being sarcastic, aren't you? In that case you should use smilies to get the humour across.

Vain

Quote from Vain :

@Pickard: You're being sarcastic, aren't you? In that case you should use smilies to get the humour across.

Vain

No i am not people just do not get that things do not happen all at once, if people think to make the best racing in the world means cutting corners and making it the number 1 thing in your life well stuff them. To make things 100% perfect it takes year like F1 cars people are still pushing the limits of development also world piece but everything takes time

I completely agree, but that's totally offtopic. That's why it seemed funny at first.

Vain

LFS comes as close to providing a sense of driving a race car as any other sim out there. In the future when the computers become more and more powerful, people will build simulators that mimic reality even better. Right now driving in LFS and driving in real life require in some ways similar but in other ways fundamentally different skill sets. Fortunately, LFS is right there on the "frontier" of commercially available simulators.

As to people who cry about "unrealistic" features? I say use common sense. Not everybody has a clutch pedal in their posession, so things like "auto-clutch" are essential for the game to become popular among casual gamers. On the other hand every "driver's aid" should have an option to be turned off. That's one reason I don't like the current race start system, there is no way to turn it off.

And I do side with people who want a "hardcore" mode, because it would be a very easy solution to appease everybody as long as you keep separate records for "hardcore" and "casual" players on LSFW. That way casual gamers can stick to the regular servers, and die-hard racers can compete in the hardcore mode.

Read the start of this thread but not all of it.
When people suggest things like warning when cars are close to you etc and people say its unrealistic - It is true. BUT some things in LFS aren't realistic but we are all able to say that something is or isn't realistic.
The physics are the closest in any game so far (IMO) but doesnt mean i think some things are unrealistic (Eg starts as you said) but i think some of them should be there (Even though unrealistic) like being able to look at tyre temperatures during race. As IRL would have a pit crew who could tell you if they are gettin too hot, or the wear on them etc but in LFS there is just us, one person.

Yes there are unrealistic things in LFS but doesn't mean that we cant say something is unrealistic or not.

Things can always be made more realistic.

Some people would like realistic times for setup changes. How about first having to drive from the hotel to the paddock, wait around there, go to the pre-grid, wait around again, go to the grid, drive the warm-up lap, drive the race and then not drive on the same track again for a whole year?

It's not unrealistic but it doesn't make sense for a simulator. But it would be pointless to hope that all simracers could in agreement about which features cross the line and which don't.

I've been though every different stage that it seems everyone else is indvidually at in this thread, in the last year or so that I've been glued to LFS. Finally, my perspective has matured into some simple principles:-

1. LFS physics are excellent, and keep getting better with each patch.
   
2. LFS is the BEST online racing simulator I've used, and keeps getting better with each patch.
   
3. I like driving in LFS.
   
4. Girls like real racing drivers, not virtual ones.
   
5. I don't have a girlfriend.
   
6. I have a tendency to wander off-topic.
   
7. I've forgotten what I was saying now.
   
8. Oh yes, LFS is what LFS is today.
   
9. Tomorrow it will be different.
   
10. If I don't like it tomorrow, I won't use it.
    
11. 10. is unlikely to happen, since 1. and 2. keep happening.
    
12. 3.

"4. Girls like real racing drivers, not virtual ones."

damn ill quit lfs today :nol2: but once it will happen and girls will like us for what we are doing as well.... :shhh:

At one point LFS will be more realistic than reality, and from then on the girls will come flowing in. Read: never.

OT:

Quote from SamH :

Girls like real racing drivers, not virtual ones.

I have to disagree with you here, you just need to find the right ones :magnify:

It goes "Girls like real racing drivers and virtual ones"

Quote from (FIN)Eza :

It goes "Girls like real racing drivers and virtual ones"

agreed

Quote from SamH :

Girls like real racing drivers, not virtual ones.

you wouldnt believe how easy it is to pick up girls with "hey babe wanna see my xrr ?"

Quote from Shotglass :

you wouldnt believe how easy it is to pick up girls with "hey babe wanna see my xrr ?"

yeah but no pictures please

*flees* .....:snail:

Quote from danowat :

Why?, because there are fundamental flaws, like the starting system, that IMO let the whole realism of the sim down.

And it's just the general high horse attitude of a certain sect of LFS users that I find annoying.

Dan,

[_] you have understood that LFS is WiP, and that the physics system will be more and more complete with every new patch.

Why are the starts arcadey? Cause it was easier to code and you have something to play.
Why is there no brake fade? Cause it isnt implemented yet, but will be.
And so on and so on. If you take the stuff, which is already implemented fully, then it is the most realistic you can get in sims nowadays.

that is the way LFS works and will work for quite a long time. It's not a game like GTR or similar, which has to be kind of complete but without "real" physics below, to make it sellable. Be happy to have what you have right now in LFS and be happy that you know, that LFS will get all the other stuff done right, that you want.

I - for myself - dont get the difficulty in understanding this...