The online racing simulator
Westhill Progress (November)
(949 posts, closed, started )
My personal opinion is that LFS devs should give us the source code of the graphical engine, so that experienced people can work on improving it (or share it to trusted people). Smile
Then, people can send their work to the devs, and so Scawen can choose to implement it (a bit like the translation process).
The only restriction will be to not overload devs with "new super cool feature that need to create super high 8K textures with normal maps and specular maps and 4000h to implement it" and respect requirments from the devs.

LFS has a wonderful and powerful community, I think it could ne great to give us the opportunity to improve our favorite game that made us live on someway.
You guys have some weird fantasies...
Nonono everything can be done by one or two guys, its only going to take fiftheenthousandmoreXmasses but in the end the biggest baddest race simulator is going to be released with the most amazing real life race tracks and cars. You will see!

/ban [how many days its going to be this time]

Last words: Hire Becky
I second that. Becky can do anything. Becky secretly rules the world from an underground bunker in deepest darkest Wales whilst stroking white kittens and sating her Marmite fixation.

I know this to be true as my Mum told me it was.
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(dawesdust_12) DELETED by Scawen : spam (reported posts / timewasting)
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(cargame.nl) DELETED by Scawen : spam (reported posts / timewasting)
Do I see some frustrated guys Smile

I can't wait to but happy there is progress last year
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(Bmxtwins) DELETED by Scawen : spam (reported posts / timewasting)
Quote from cargame.nl :Last words: Hire Becky

Voice of reason, in my opinion....

LFS has been started by three enthusiastic people some 12 years a go.... 12 years a go!!! (maybe even earlier).

12 years a go we were all much, much younger and IT technologies were at a ridiculously lower level than they are today. The World has changed a lot in those 12 years too... Many of us, including the devs, have started our own families, introducing new, everyday duties that we did not have at the "beginning of time" Smile

As much as I am grateful for not making a simple "product" out of it, but a sim worth spending hours and hours every day of our lives for ONLY freaking 24 GBP for all that time (and insisting on software being playable on slower machines), I can't shake off the feeling that it can even be better than that...

Some (if not many) people who complain here about slow development are actually enthusiast who simply love LFS for all that it is and really want to see it progresses. This is an actual appeal to Scawen to reconsider the plan of how it's done rather than what should be done.

I really do LOVE this game/sim and I really hate seeing it loses pace with time. Please, don't let it just fade away...
Hi Scawen,
I'm very busy in last year, than I have no too much activity in the forum, but I'm regularly checking the LFS web and forum and news here. I found this threat and your comment in #107.
I want write only short reply to you and to community.
I'm very amazing (in positive) how you seems whole situation about developing of LFS, and about modern times. There out are many unnecessair news and developing in many products today, what is worse after new release like before.
I'm VERY AGREE with you, and VERY SUPPORT your way. Modern capitalism = more quantity with lower quality. My password is short: For me Quality is more important like quantity. I will no more waste your time, I want only AGREE with you, and I absolutely SUPPORT you and your team and your project LFS. I agree with every word what you write in #107. Thank you for your quality oriented work, it is higher value like many new versions but every with poor quality.
Thank You
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(dawesdust_12) DELETED by Scawen : spam (reported posts / timewasting)
Quote from cargame.nl :
/ban [how many days its going to be this time]

If that's the only reason you came here - to get banned - we can readily accomodate you. How long shall the ban be? Well, here's where you are in luck! We can ban you for any amount of time, even a year if you like, though it isn't clear how serious a ban you are going for here. Probably you will only want a short ban so that you can get back to being a total nuisance. But that will only get you another ban and start the cycle of time-wasting once again. So name your ban and I'll deliver it to you. We can extend it by months or years if you feel like the level of attention-seeking you are trying to foster doesn't equate to a ban which will satisfy your ego.

A better alternative would be to stop wasting everybody's time, including your own, on bitchy little forum posts that do nothing to improve the discourse about LFS.
A moderator is like a judge, clean from any assumptions. You clearly are not. I take your reply back to the community and ask who you actually are. Lets see if somebody can explain.

Oh and I did more then enough to improve LFS.
Quote from cargame.nl :Oh and I did more then enough to improve LFS.

and that doesn't mean that you can do what you want by posting every time provocation/useless comments on a dev discussion thread, maybe you feel like essential to the multiplayer life of lfs that's why you have such arrogant behavior all the time, but don't worry lfs will still alive even without your help, no one are indispensable here apart devs team.
Provocation/useless comments? Where? I am replying/supporting nacim and sermilan is responding to my post. I am simply sharing/giving the opinion that this project cannot be completed in a reasonable amount of time by two guys. Sermilan explained it in detail.

If you have a different opinion thats fine but don't force yours. The rest of your post again is full of assumptions about my personally. These comments by you and Gunn are the ones which are provocative slash useless, sorry. Its very bad you know, making assumptions of somebody you have never spoken with or met. And I am not really the one which is hiding behind some computer screen/online account as far as I know. Voice communication is awesome, more people should be a little less scared. The keyboard often isn't sufficient.
I highly doubt LFS is going to change engine any time soon - It's like training your own racehorse from the start then borrowing someone else's when it comes to the race.

The LFS engine is by design completely designed to work with the LFS physics etc so changing to a different engine would cause more problems than it would solve.

Scawen freely admits that there was a quiet period in development, but that is clearly not the case now, especially with the amount of input and information he has provided in terms of progress updates, so I don't really get why people are frustrated. Just because the triple A game studios pump out a new game every 5 minutes doesn't mean a small team of 3 people, working on the project part time, are going to be able to match that pace.
Quote from cargame.nl :Provocation/useless comments? Where? I am replying/supporting nacim and sermilan is responding to my post. I am simply sharing/giving the opinion that this project cannot be completed in a reasonable amount of time by two guys. Sermilan explained it in detail.

If you have a different opinion thats fine but don't force yours. The rest of your post again is full of assumptions about my personally. These comments by you and Gunn are the ones which are provocative slash useless, sorry. Its very bad you know, making assumptions of somebody you have never spoken with or met. And I am not really the one which is hiding behind some computer screen/online account as far as I know. Voice communication is awesome, more people should be a little less scared. The keyboard often isn't sufficient.

nice try to defend yourself, just saw your comment asking about ban...isn't that a provocation against moderation team ?? just look at your previous comments in this thread all is a responses against others in a provocating/arrogant manner and many are already deleted, no one of them are clearly on topic, yea 95% of your post in this forum are like this.

no need to know you personally, because your comments are reflecting clearly how you are.

Quote from McGherkin :I highly doubt LFS is going to change engine any time soon - It's like training your own racehorse from the start then borrowing someone else's when it comes to the race.

The LFS engine is by design completely designed to work with the LFS physics etc so changing to a different engine would cause more problems than it would solve.

Scawen freely admits that there was a quiet period in development, but that is clearly not the case now, especially with the amount of input and information he has provided in terms of progress updates, so I don't really get why people are frustrated. Just because the triple A game studios pump out a new game every 5 minutes doesn't mean a small team of 3 people, working on the project part time, are going to be able to match that pace.

thats why I said graphics are connected to physics engine, but actual engine can be improved greatly it's just a matter of time because those things are not simple to do.
Gfx engine is usually the easiest part of simulator development. Until you aim for some photo realistic output, it's actually quite trivial, when compared to the non-gfx code. If you aim for something like pCars or Codemaster's engine, then it's just much easier and smaller (but not trivial).
Easiest part. Hhmm.. Westhill 2.0 was announced @mid June of this year, soon going to be last year. Nobody knows when it's called finished the only thing we have seen so far is reports about fences and shadows. Now, I can be disrespectful about that but I won't because I know it's not easy stuff and I guess only 5-10% of the work is tried to be described. But what I don't understand is why it can't be done by somebody which already has great experience with DX9 while the focus can be on the technical/mathematics aspect; paths, tire physics, netcode and last but not least security. Even this already is an enormous task for one person.

I read "busy with complicated shadow calculations", it sounds like a big sidetrack (again) and alright lets guess a new completion date; Spring 2015. Then there is Westhill 2.0, two combo's and the cruisers can drive where ever they want due to a new path system and the graphical look is múch better. Is this ground breaking for a racer, for a league? I can already say it will not. What happened with real cars and tracks. If I say that I race on a race simulator with a XFG or a FXR on a track called Westhill people look at me thinking what is he talking about? Sounds like fantasy. And it is fantasy. What happened to Rockingham, the Scirocco? You are almost not allowed to mention those names anymore after five years but things which really are a game changer concerning racing are endlessly delayed. And it doesn't have to be like that, there is enough talent! Tiago converted loads and loads of tracks from Rfactor->Assetto Corsa within days/weeks. It's just a small example.
The simple fact is that it`s the way they do it. We can suggest alterations to the things that they do, while they are doing it - sometimes it may help, sometimes not. Many of us before have offered all sorts of help, for free, etc, but to no avail. It just doesn`t work.

LFS is theirs and will be done their way. As much as many of us would love to vastly improve the finished product with all the skills we have and could offer, it just ain`t gonna work.

Just give up the crusade, and do what all the rest of us did. Find another sim or project that will appreciate all the effort, give them all your time, and drop back in here now and again to see how it`s going Smile

To try and keep somewhat on topic, I`m still looking forward to the new westhill rendition. I`ve still got a soft spot for LFS, and I`ll welcome any new content.
i've heard that the new DX12 will improve the rendering time for a single image over half a second. Maybe this could be an improvement for a bigger Racer field within the same high FPS target. At the same time there would be a big graphical improvement
Quote from Be2K :improve the rendering time for a single image over half a second.

Wat

Despite that, Scawen has explained the DirectX stuff numerous times. He made it clear that the switch to DX9 opened a lot of doors and that he doesn't plan on converting (hue) to the newer versions.
Quote from cargame.nl :A moderator is like a judge, clean from any assumptions. You clearly are not. I take your reply back to the community and ask who you actually are. Lets see if somebody can explain.

Oh and I did more then enough to improve LFS.

A moderator is simply a person who has agreed to take on the job of mediator/organiser/cleaner-up-of-shit. There is no authority associated with the position whatsover. So when you try to cause conflict on the forum and a moderator calls you out on your snide comments and baiting, they aren't acting from authority, thay are just taking out the trash. It isn't fun to do, it isn't even important, it is just necessary. I don't take it personally and I don't care if you do choose to take it personally.

Indeed you have contributed amicably to the community over the last several years, which is why I find it very disappointing to see your role here reduced to trolling and baiting. Any credibility and respect you may have earned is now evaporating every time you post negatively. This is a pity as you clearly have been a member in the past who has helped others to enjoy this sim. Now you seem determined to adopt the tired old stereotype of the forum troublemaker.

Attacking my own role is fruitless. I have been involved with LFS since way before S1 was released. Apart from moderating LFS forums since back when we were on RSC, I have (and do) run various LFS sites and have poured more than one thousand dollars of my own funds, and thousands of hours of my free time into community-building and supporting LFS. I have helped to improve the way LFS skins are mapped and produced skinning tools and methods which are not only widely used in our community, but have also now been adopted by devs of other sims. I also reproduced the artwork that was used for the LFS shirts. I declined to be compensated for this effort (although reward was offered). I have run servers and organised events within our community. I have participated in almost 400 online races. I own three S2 licences. I continue to support our community without complaint and without any tangible personal benefits apart from making some great friendships which continue to flourish within and outside this community.

As for assumptions, your present avatar says a lot about the type of identity you are trying to adopt currently on our forums. Assumptions aren't required when you clearly want to be 'that guy who takes shots at the devs on their own forums'. Your attitude smacks of 'look at me everybody, I'm doing it again, watch me get banned - I'm somebody'.

That you are also publicly flogging a dead horse in regards to your attitude towards the development of this sim, even though you know that the methods you employ to do so are going to be unsuccessful, is deplorable from a community member like yourself who in the past has been helpful and respectful about such matters.

At the end of the day I'm calling you out on your specific posts in this thread which can't be passed off as discussion about Westhill Progress by any reasonable person who has witnessed your barbs and jibes. If you have a genuine improvement suggestion - post it in the appropriate forum. If you have something genuinely useful to impart to the devs, send them a polite email outlining your concerns. But for the sake of other members who come here to read the progress report about Westhill don't continue to pollute this thread with your nonsense remarks which are obviously crafted with the intention of causing friction. Of course you are not the only one who has done so or continues to do so, but I believe you are intelligent enough to reflect on the nature of your actions. Your recent posts deserve moderation, don't insult your own intelligence by implying otherwise.

*Your most recent post in this thread is much more mature, and in line with what I might expect from a member like you. What's wrong with being reasonable like this in all of your posts?
Quote from Be2K :i've heard that the new DX12 will improve the rendering time for a single image over half a second. Maybe this could be an improvement for a bigger Racer field within the same high FPS target. At the same time there would be a big graphical improvement

"At the same time there would be a big graphical improvement"
from what? Big grin
Quote from Gunn :

As for assumptions, your present avatar says a lot about the type of identity you are trying to adopt currently on our forums. Assumptions aren't required when you clearly want to be 'that guy who takes shots at the devs on their own forums'. Your attitude smacks of 'look at me everybody, I'm doing it again, watch me get banned - I'm somebody'.

Oohh right... So thats it? Some misunderstanding?

Well.. To clarify that.. I got banned for "insulting" because I asked to somebody if listening was hard. Now I have to admit it was a bit rough but to call it insulting you can set up a debate about that. Now while during this ban period this happened;

Quote from Scawen :and being interrupted every few hours to deal with insults from talentless fools who can't think of anything better to do. But it seems this is the way of the internet.

to call your customers talentless fools, if thats not an insult then I am the queen of England. And its not really about me, I am sadly not 25 myself anymore. I see whats happening. And thats a racing community which completely gives up on this sim. Now I tried to give that positive energy in the background but you can do that for a few months. Then sarcasm, demotivation, loss of interest comes back. Stopping to actually put in FREE TIME into this project. And move on, to capitalism. Some very respected racers or organizers either got banned or seriously demotivated by these words spoken by the main developer.

And yes, I would like to highlight this... Especially during that period I couldn't post any message so you think of other ways. It's an insult and it also shows at the same time that the outcome of the future of LFS is still very much uncertain. Because if you are sure and you believe in your work, about the time its finished and everybody will be happy.. You don't need such extremely heavy words like these.

Last but not least, with all respect, nobody believes the every minute is a minute of my precious time statement anymore. We've seen that being used two years ago in the meantime being admitted that not much was done after some patch updates especially when the money flow still was on a pleasurable level.

Look, you can say this words -every minute is a minute- to young grown ups of around the age of 20 but come on... I am adminning, moderating and maintaining servers for the last fourteen years now (not the smallest). You can fool a bit around but there is a level where it goes wrong. By the way, the next step is hate. And this is a really bad one which made it even into the seven sins. We've seen a short intro of that last year while I lost hours, days of time even to battle some kids going mental. You might have been around during the bright period but it is much harder during the dark period. I almost would regret my diplomatic actions and sharing my knowledge and skills towards other respected server owners. But I will not, not all was bad. Anyway lots of stuff happened throughout the years. I can also start to talk about a major InSim race contributor which left the scene -very disappointed- already years before but that makes the spiral of disillusion after disillusion on LFS only bigger. I think I said enough. It's too bad I've seen only Victor in public, but he is also the one which showed the most dedication and I think he is very much underrated. Too bad he needs to suffer from all of these negative events but luckily (hopefully) he got a nice real job out of it. ... In the end.
There is really too much of this heavy stuff going on and it IS a waste of time. We are working on LFS and bringing the new track up to a new level. I could talk so much but it's all the same as I've said hundreds of times, so I will not. We all want physics and graphics updates. At the moment it's a really big graphical and functionality update and I've been right on the case, continuing the momentum from the graphical updates caused by the Rift DK2 which is a new experience and has inspired Eric as well. All graphical updates are now checked in the light of the 3D world inside the DK2. Something you seem to be very cynical about, cargame.nl, but you are simply wrong. The Rift is important, this is not the VR of the 1980s. This is VR that works, and works well with LFS.

There's no point in people coming here and throwing insults around. We'll just ban them, and get back to work. So what if I called some people talentless fools? If a person really has nothing better to do with their life than going on a forum and insulting people, then I am quite sad for them, and they really need to try to find something constructive to do with their life. Being a talentless fool may be temporary, or so I hope.

Again and again I say, we are working on this at the pace we like. We don't use the help of others because we like it this way. Just don't expect things out quickly. If you want more variety than is available in LFS, go and race in a different sim for a while. That is fine! Come and race when there is something new to try out. We sold you a license without time limits and you get free updates a few times a year, so we don't really need to be attacked for that.

And cargame.nl, please do stop coming here and insulting people. Your server provides some of the best racing and we don't want to kick you out. But you really do waste a lot of our time by insulting random people who ask an innocent question. The posts are reported and we have to come and deal with it. It's pointless. If you are in a bad mood, please keep away from here. I'd be grateful if you would change your avatar. A constant personal attack on me seems quite unfair really. Yes... it's personal, it has my name on it.
Amen to that Scawen!

Just stick with your own way of work. Because this is how this great sim was born.

I really respect you three for not giving in on LFS!
P.S. 1) When I said we don't use the help of others, I obviously meant in the sense of my work and Eric's work. We have a great deal of help from forum moderators, translators, community testing, hosting and support in so many ways.

P.S. 2) I never called cargame.nl a talentless fool. He runs a great server so there's no way I would have said that. I was referring to simple trolls who just pop up and make trouble every now and then, revealing their own issues.
Scawen, by functionality updates, does that mean we may see some more insim/outgauge capabilities?
This thread is closed

Westhill Progress (November)
(949 posts, closed, started )
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