The online racing simulator
Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
Let's allow everybody to steal skins and share accounts aswell then.

This discussion is getting outragious.
Quote from Dennis93 :Let's allow everybody to steal skins and share accounts aswell then.

This discussion is getting outragious.

+1.

I have no idea what you guys discussion so much about this. This is getting ridiculous, again. Pain to read.

Stealing setups is forbidden and stays forbidden. All of you guys probably don't know league racing where setups having much more value than driving on cargame.
Return the system back how it was and making it impossible again to steal setups by saving replays.

This is the most miserable and disrespectful thing you can ever do. Everybody who does this just gtfo.

Quote from Bose321 :What's the deal with the setup crying? It's not like I will beat all of you suddenly if I get the best setup around. You're still faster than me.

And Gerben seriously, can you just stop smashing your two cents everywhere - You are the last one who knows what's up with league racing so just, please once, stop. Just once.
We had discussion on this matter yesterday on IRC channel and from what i understand, there is not easy fix for the whole replay stealing issue. It looks like solution to fix it would require some serious mind torture and perhaps another long-ish period of development of the replays. I know Scawen is kind of a genius and would be able to work something out, but the current proposal of enforcing setup sharing does not fix the current issue, it's just hiding the ugly child of the family in dark closet. For now, i would leave it as it is, unless (until) proper fix can be found.
As I said, it is quite easy to narrow down the search.
Those who have it has breached LFS rules, which to me is the same as cracking or whatever, tak away their accounts, super simple.
Just an idea, maybe it would be possible to sign each setup with a unique hash generated by the value of each setting? That way the setup thieves could atleast be identified and banned from the servers, or even from the master server itself.

Then again, all the hackers would need to do then, is propably just change a few values in the setup by a minimal amount so it wouldn't affect the handling, and the hash would be different. Still, food for thought.
Let outlaws be outlaws.
To be honest, these setup stealers, in my recent experience, are rarely succesful in racing either way.

If there is proof, nail the hacker.
So what's your point dennis, why are you arguing ?

this ego drama is beginning to look gross and appaling. Nice job, as usual.
Because people want us/me, people who've made setup building an art, to share their setup for everyone?
Hell no, there's a reason why I'm a good setup builder and that is because 96% of the setups i use is something I made by myself, for myself. I share setups on a daily basis for people who ask, heck, i even made setups for a large margin of people in my time in LFS.

Thats why i argue, because I have something to protect and I have something I'm proud to have made, for myself and others, but not for everyone.
Quote from FireMike15 :And Gerben seriously, can you just stop smashing your two cents everywhere - You are the last one who knows what's up with league racing so just, please once, stop. Just once.

Wow, thanks ****. Just because I don't race 24/7 doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on in league racing. Just because you cry over the fact that people 'steal' your setups doesn't mean I can't say that I don't see the problem in it.
Quote from Dennis93 :Let outlaws be outlaws.
To be honest, these setup stealers, in my recent experience, are rarely succesful in racing either way.

I'm kinda pulling this quote out of context, but what's the point really? If you're a proper good racer you are also able to make a proper setup yourself that suits you. I cant imagine that a shit-tier driver suddenly wins all leagues because of setup stealing.
If I still had all my setups I would zip them up and post them just to prove a point!

When I started in LFS I put a lot of effort in to my FOX setups, I tried to make cars that handled well and usually were neutrally balanced and very drivable. Back in those days I competed in the OWRL and I recall one event at Fern Bay where I was doing very well in practice and placing in the top few spots. I gave my set up out to a lot of people who in turn shared it, and by race day I was top of the mid-field.

Was I beaten by my own set up?

In part yes I was and I was even thanked for making it (a reward in it's own right), but I was also beaten by the fact that I was at that point in time, at my best, the top of the midfield - and no neutrally balanced drivable setup was going to change that.

Later on in my participation in LFS I got more interested in other cars, and not in the least interested in flaffing around with their setups, I started asking for them.

But almost every setup I ever got was tweaked to suite my driving style, more oversteer on some cars/tracks - less needed on others...

The reality is:

Different drivers drive differently.

And that means in a league race the only way to perform at the best that you personally can achieve is to tweak the setup to YOUR requirements. The fine detail is ALWAYS personal. The course detail is always down to car/track combination - so when you ask for and receive / or steal a setup, what you get is the course detail, the fine tuning you still have to do yourself.

So going back to my Fern Bay race, if I had downloaded someone elses set, and not fine tuned it to the near-neutral slightly on the side of understeer driving style I had at that time in the FOX would I have finished top of the midfield?

Probably not. I'd likely have spun, and at best would have made the mid ranks.

Why?

Because that was my level of skill at the time.
Quote from Bose321 :Wow, thanks ****. Just because I don't race 24/7 doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on in league racing. Just because you cry over the fact that people 'steal' your setups doesn't mean I can't say that I don't see the problem in it.

The fact is that you could stop putting your opinions everywhere which aren't helping those conversations finally.
And the other fact is that you could stop offending everybody all the time if someone starts criticizing you.

Even me who is more reading than writing here - it's just sad to see (again) that this here is filled with bull**** instead of constructive opinions and conversations.

Good luck on the setups, though.
There another side of the coin to this little issue, the one that tells the tale about waiting and seeing how to tackle it sometime later. It's not as a wide spread as we make it sound. Most people just drive their merry races thinking their sets are safe which is for the large part true. It's also very tabu to talk about it online so this subject is contained. Some people just don't care. In a nutshell, problem seriously affects only a very small portion of people in a way that they refuse to drive online or upload hotlaps. A manageable scenario. That is not to say i don't sympathize with them.
Another thing, on the psychological side, is that currently a person must do wrong to steal a set which is a barrier of conscience. Hopefully it prevents most urges. Also newbies usually get shared a set when they ask, although i would like to see more of that

Perhaps an intermediate step, client side option to enable setup sharing for everyone would be better. To expand a bit - toggle button: hidden / everyone / team members (this info is fetched from lfsw). Leave server side option for later to see how this goes first.

After a night of sleep I just don't feel it is that big of an issue right now to go forward with mandatory sharing as it certainly looks it would stir stuff for everyone as opposed to a minority like now. And i suppose the league community has its own ways of dealing with thieves.

But yeah, good patch, no problems so far
(any change of digital speedo making a comeback? :shy
Quote from Nilex :But yeah, good patch, no problems so far
(any change of digital speedo making a comeback? :shy

And the virtual mirror when driving with chaseview please.
I would love to see that come back for those (me included) that use that view.
#89 - troy
We should rather talk about force view, lets get back to important discussions please!
Quote from FireMike15 :The fact is that you could stop putting your opinions everywhere which aren't helping those conversations finally.
And the other fact is that you could stop offending everybody all the time if someone starts criticizing you.

Even me who is more reading than writing here - it's just sad to see (again) that this here is filled with bull**** instead of constructive opinions and conversations.

Good luck on the setups, though.

How is saying that I don't see a problem with setup stealing because it won't help bad drivers not helping? Just because you're such an egoist when it comes to setups doesn't mean everyone has that same opinion.

Besides, we have more important things left. How about tire physics and content? Worrying about setups right now is just silly.
Quote from Bose321 :How is saying that I don't see a problem with setup stealing because it won't help bad drivers not helping? Just because you're such an egoist when it comes to setups doesn't mean everyone has that same opinion.

It's not ALL bad drivers, most of these cats are from the bigger teams in LFS.
And it's cool, that most people agreeing that every setup should be shared has never had a competitive career in LFS, good on ya, perhaps for you people (oh yes i said that) you should go play TDU or something else where driving skills doesn't really matter in the end.

To be honest, as i said in a previous post, i have no problem sending setups to those who need it, though, I do not enjoy other people stealing my setups, and then take credit for it.
As usual, setup makers don't want to share to everyone and leechers try to force them do to it...

Making a good setup is a lot of work. You can work for free if you want to, but it's a right not to do so...

We must keep things as they are and leave the author of a setup the choice to share or not.

If you can't find a good setup, maybe you could do what we did : learn how to make it. And stop whining.
Quote from Bose321 :Besides, we have more important things left. How about tire physics and content? Worrying about setups right now is just silly.

I sort of agree with this bit. Competitive league racing is already at a big decline and since there seems to be no easy way to prevent setup stealing, why bother with it now. There are more important things to work on.

The question is, whether allow only a portion of people who know about the way to steal setups, or allow it for everyone. Now apparently almost everyone can steal a set if they try hard enough. It is there, available in LFS memory, it's only about the right tools.

Of course there's the argument that the authors have spent a lot of time on their setups and then someone comes and steals their work within matter of seconds. That is the moral part of the problem, and of course it sucks. I understand those who have worked on their sets for weeks and they know that someone can simply take their sets and use them.

But as someone said, a good setup doesn't make you a good driver. Not every setup suits everyone.

So I would keep it as it is now, and maybe in the future think about some ways to solve the problem.

Adjusting your driving style for someone else's setup can take you days or weeks too. Some people are more adapting of course. I am terrible at making setups myself. I am lucky that a lot of people have shared a lot of their setups with me, but I admit, I have stolen a lot of hotlap setups. I don't do that online though. Also I don't participate in league racing tho.
Quote from Bose321 :Just because I don't race 24/7 doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on in league racing.

Actually you don't indeed. Loads of people are not affiliated with LFS (online) anymore but still have commentary on those who actually do. Extremely weird behavior. Go mind your own business I would say?

Quote from Bose321 :Besides, we have more important things left.

What 'we', talk for yourself please.

Quote from Matrixi :When did you last donate to a charity?

Years ago. Charity is an industry with well payed management and commercial activity to keep the whole believe alive. What you did was paying for your karma.

Same with setup sharing, its nice to make someone else happy but what if you actually don't like that person because its a selfish ass? Most people who steal are of this type.. No creativity, no talent, having self centered opinions; "I want this, I want that" and now the people who actually DO something are being put away as egoistic people.

How funny.

--
This whole setup encryption topic was started because there was a believe that there was an easy fix for this in the next patch. It looks like it isn't at all, some nice constructive idea's came up which was good... Until some moralistic comments where made by people who apparantly have no clue what racing is about. Go talk with Vettel, Hamilton, Ryan Hunter-Reay or whatever and say.. "Hey, you know what you guys need to do.. All drive the same setups!" .. I will do the video bit.
Quote from cargame.nl :Go talk with Vettel, Hamilton, Ryan Hunter-Reay or whatever and say.. "Hey, you know what you guys need to do.. All drive the same setups!" .. I will do the video bit.

No one here has said anything about everyone having to drive on same setups.

Try this for a thought. Newcomer person A who isn't good at creating setups asks person B for a setup. B sends the setup to A, who in return over time learns what makes a good setup and manages to make it even better and sends it back to B, improved. Win-win.

Or B simply says NOPE either because of personal reasons or due to team orders, A learns to create setups from scratch (or with the help of other people) and sure as hell isn't going to be very compelled to share his setups with B.

I've had experience with both ways when I've been asked to send my setup, and I greatly prefer the first method.
It's great that you prefer that, but doesn't have to be everyone's preference does it?

I prefer to have no strangers in my house so I lock the door and only invite people which I like. Sure it can be fun to discover there are actually new people in the house who made use of the refrigerator without restocking it. Or, in the best case scenario restock it with even more stuff. Because the outcome of such events is mostly unknown its generally better to have control over your own key instead of having some student dormitory with a 'free for all, grab all you want' ideology.
#98 - abz1
Maybe have an option on the setups screen, which allows the user to automatically turn on/off share for each setup. Default being on, and those that don't want to share can turn it off.

Anyone asking for setup could then see on the drivers list whether the setup is public/private, and if it's public then it's downloadable without having to ask for it, otherwise it's obvious the user does not want to share it.

Ps. thanks for supporting oculus rift, pretty much designed for lfs. I'm just waiting for the consumer version now.
Quote from cargame.nl :It's great that you prefer that, but doesn't have to be everyone's preference does it?

Quote from Matrixi :People who hone their setups to perfection should be allowed to keep them private if they so wish, but that is simply impossible with computer applications, because some hacker will ALWAYS find a way around it.

As an unrelated note, I don't really recall setups being this big of a deal some years ago when I was more active in the racing scene. But I guess it makes sense, without any huge changes happening development wise, people are now squeezing every last bit of performance out of the cars with setups and they're being treated as valuable secrets.

New tyre model (and dynamic weather conditions) will hopefully reset the situation once more and calm things down for a few good years.
I have to say one more reason why these programs hurt league racing so much is that the best drivers I have seen there are often able to reach quite close to optimum laptimes of their setup after only about 50 laps of practice and that's why racing is more like setup making competition sometimes and that's what makes it interesting.

Setup stealing and sharing discussion (from 0.6F thread)
(216 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG