The online racing simulator
[Merged] Discussion regarding LFS development
(1578 posts, started )
Quote from Scawen :
...

This is absolutely not that Victor and I are wishing Eric would release new content and he is refusing to do so. That is one of the false imaginings from certain people in the community. We want to sort out the tyres then release the VW and then Rockingham and other things as planned.

As I've said, over and over and over again, Eric is working on new content. You just will not believe it. Eric doesn't post here because he doesn't like the way some people take any words we say, twist them round to mean something completely different then hold them against us. And because any minor slip up in our text can lead to years of seemingly personal attacks.

...


With all due respect to Scawen, it's a bit rich being critical of a community that is now largely skeptical given it's has been told one thing and then another over several years. Describing it as minor is a understatement. There has never been any real answers to the bulk of question surrounding content freeze. Just the same short answers from years ago.

Regardless of Eric's dislike of the forum community, his participation is necessary to restore credibility and trust, even if in a joint statement. If they want the community's trust and belief (other than a few diehard stalwarts) it has to be earnt and words alone aren't going to cut it after 5 years.
I think it's a bit pointless, especially by now, to rabble on about Scavier's care for the community, or lack thereof. Nothing the community has ever said has changed the work ethics of Scavier. Simply put, Scavier works in mysterious ways .

Pointing fingers isn't going to get this thing off the ground either. Perhaps "up from the bottom of the barrel" would be more fitting. It's been said very often that this thing was going downhill, and I really get the feeling that nothing short of a miracle will save this project.
I think the doom-mongering is a bit melodramatic.
They're doing what they want, is it great? No. Has it felt like a bit of a waste of an opportunity for ages? Yes, but it's their opportunity. They earned it in the same way that they have earned a status that is way ahead of some unknown newcomer to the genre. That's why we're here after ten years.

Unless you're suggesting that Scawen is just lying about what is going on (the simple lack of proof that he isn't is not a valid reason imo), then they don't need a miracle to save the project. Any release will invigorate LFS. If they came out with S3 with gorgeous graphics it would be huge, even with no graphical updates it would be popular with the same people that enjoyed it before. Any fan or former fan of LFS with S2 is not going to hesitate to buy S3, even if they're playing Assetto Corsa or iracing or whatever too.

I'm not trying to defend the decision to not release any content or whatever, I think that was a mistake on their part, but nevertheless, I don't think it's a case of LFS not having a chance whatever they do. If/when they do release something, it will not go unnoticed, and will probably do alright.
Major releases would pretty much qualify as miracles in my book, so I stand by my point!
There's basically no chance of a major release in the near to medium future. Subscribing to such optimism based on the past history is no more fanciful than believing in Santa TBH.

Even if you take all the announced updates and roll it into a release, it will would pale in comparison the the S2 release.

Perhaps when the next release receives a lukewarm reception and they see only a short bounce in interest, it might force them to adopt a more conventional strategy.

Even to support a modest income for 3 devs, they'd have to be selling 200 copies a week to be sustainable and it doesn't appear to be the case in recent times based on LFSWorld stats.
We have this discussion every 3 - 5 month, with the same arguments on both sides. Don't you get bored with this at some point?

It changes nothing, so do something else: play LFS, read a book, go outside whatever. If there is news there will be a some kind of notice. It has always been that way.
Quote from three_jump :
It changes nothing, so do something else: play LFS, read a book, go outside whatever. If there is news there will be a some kind of notice. It has always been that way.

It would be nice to get some closure on the status of LFS, it's been years that we've been in the dark. Personally I think LFS is on life support, critical patches but no new major content planned. Maybe the devs wanted to have a greater success and now are unable to compete against the upcoming and currently thriving titles.

One could say in Racing Legends style "I still wait it... not"
The last thing we heard from these guys was in 2004 and they still claimed they were working on it, sounds awfully similar to LFS's current situation (apart from the fact that Racing Legends was never released):
http://www.west-racing.com/forum/index.php?topic=2395.0
Quote from Macfox :There's basically no chance of a major release in the near to medium future. Subscribing to such optimism based on the past history is no more fanciful than believing in Santa TBH.

Even if you take all the announced updates and roll it into a release, it will would pale in comparison the the S2 release.

Perhaps when the next release receives a lukewarm reception and they see only a short bounce in interest, it might force them to adopt a more conventional strategy.

Even to support a modest income for 3 devs, they'd have to be selling 200 copies a week to be sustainable and it doesn't appear to be the case in recent times based on LFSWorld stats.

So what do you want? Clearly you're interested or you wouldn't be here. I can't believe that anybody would bother to visit this thread if they actually wanted to read that LFS is getting the bullet, or have you simply argued on that side for so long that now you're basically just looking for vindication?

@3J yes, I do a bit, and I don't mind complaint posts at all, but statements that LFS is dead and sweeping statements based on nought but a long enough time to think of nothing better are bizarre.
Probably it's just that I don't get the bitterness towards Scawen but whatever.
Quote from sinbad :
Probably it's just that I don't get the bitterness towards Scawen but whatever.

Sinbad, you're wasting your time. The moaners on here clearly can't actually understand the mindset of the developers or just refuse to accept it.

Like, I don't go into a coffee shop and berate the owners for not doing things the way I want. "Oh you should work more to develop your blend" or "the colour scheme in here is wrong, you need to change it".

But with sims people think it's perfectly normal to write an essay about how wrong the developers are.... when in fact the developers can't ever really be wrong because Scawan and co have made it clear what their objectives are i.e it's done when it's done.
That's what happens to lot of my own hobby projects. If i can't make it exactly the way i want to, to the perfection, i lose my motivation.

That's why artists needs bosses, to force them to do compromises.

Sad this happened to this game, the start was so good. Maybe someday Scawen will get enough motivation to finish the god damn physics. That's the issue, after physics are good enough for him, he can finish the easy&boring stuff very fast.

But ATM not looking too good.

Cmoon, don't mess this up. This is the opportunity of your life. Just do it!

This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

Be humble, do whatever it takes. Hire the teamleader, the one with the sharpest whip. The one who forces you to keep working.
You will thank yourself afterwards.
Quote from mdmx :That's what happens to lot of my own hobby projects. If i can't make it exactly the way i want to, to the perfection, i lose my motivation.

That's why artists needs bosses, to force them to do compromises.

Sad this happened to this game, the start was so good. Maybe someday Scawen will get enough motivation to finish the god damn physics. That's the issue, after physics are good enough for him, he can finish the easy&boring stuff very fast.

But ATM not looking too good.

Cmoon, don't mess this up. This is the opportunity of your life. Just do it!

This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

Be humble, do whatever it takes. Hire the teamleader, the one with the sharpest whip. The one who forces you to keep working.
You will thank yourself afterwards.

I think you should stop going on forums wasting your time. maybe hire a life coach so you can give 100% to your life.

Be humble, do whatever it takes. Hire the teamleader, the one with the sharpest whip. The one who forces you to keep working.

You will thank yourself afterward.

Sigh... Shame on you Intrepid for mocking a 10 year player that cares enough to comment and show interest in the game. It's the typical jack-arse attitude that has eroded this communities standard for too long.

One has to ask, are you happy with LFS and the progress of development?
Quote from Intrepid :I think you should stop going on forums wasting your time. maybe hire a life coach so you can give 100% to your life.

Be humble, do whatever it takes. Hire the teamleader, the one with the sharpest whip. The one who forces you to keep working.

You will thank yourself afterward.


omg.. well, first, check my post count. and then check yours..

there is a very thin line between projecting and provoking. i don't think you understand what i mean, but whatever. i'll leave this forum again for a next 2 years or so, and then maybe come back to check the progress. cu mate.
Quote from Macfox :Sigh... Shame on you sinbad for mocking a 10 year player that cares enough to comment and show interest in the game. It's the typical jack-arse attitude that has eroded this communities standard for too long.

One has to ask, are you happy with LFS and the progress of development?

I haven't mocked anybody afaik, I literally just question why you're making the statements you're making. You've apparently labelled me as a "diehard-stalwart" and if the Santa comment is not an attempt to belittle then I completely missed the point of that statement. You might as well have thrown in the fanboi comment since that's all I infer.

I've answered your question several times btw.
Quote from mdmx :omg.. well, first, check my post count. and then check yours..

there is a very thin line between projecting and provoking. i don't think you understand what i mean, but whatever. i'll leave this forum again for a next 2 years or so, and then maybe come back to check the progress. cu mate.

Your dedication to the forum and sim in general has been less than par. If you commit more, maybe hire a forum/sim coach you, could help push LFS more. Sell more copies and help the developers work better.



My point is that telling a developer whose work process is perfectly valid and acceptable, how YOU would do things in a hypothetical situation is pointless.

I've done projects before, one in particular where I brought back on old racing class at a local club. Just for fun because I loved the vehicles. Was a lot of hard work. But I did things how I wanted out of pure passion. however, after a bit of time when the class started to wane (naturally as parts were rare and I wasn't in it for the money and ran out of spare time) suddenly out of the woodwork suddenly you got these guys starting to state 'how they would do things better and what I did wrong'. To be quite honest it was nothing more than ignorant bollocks because my intentions were perfectly clear and stated from the start. but still "oh i reckon you should have done" "if you did this and changed this then this woulda been better". One thing it didn't do was motivate me in any way shape or form. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT COMMERCIAL SUCCESS!

I just feel bad for the developers (hence my postings on this thread) whose work process is perfectly fine having to deal with this same old rubbish day in day out on their own bloody forum. We already have sims that do more traditional business models, it's nice to have some variation. And to have guys who won't release rubbish at ANY cost... you have to respect that. If nothing is released.... so what.... at least they gave it a go.
Quote from sinbad :I haven't mocked anybody afaik, I literally just question why you're making the statements you're making. You've apparently labelled me as a "diehard-stalwart" and if the Santa comment is not an attempt to belittle then I completely missed the point of that statement. You might as well have thrown in the fanboi comment since that's all I infer.

I've answered your question several times btw.

My bad...Sorry... It was Intrepid I was referring to in his post to mdmx. You are correct on your points.
Quote from Intrepid :

...you got these guys starting to state 'how they would do things better and what I did wrong'. To be quite honest it was nothing more than ignorant bollocks because my intentions were perfectly clear and stated from the start. but still "oh i reckon you should have done" "if you did this and changed this then this woulda been better". One thing it didn't do was motivate me in any way shape or form. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT COMMERCIAL SUCCESS!

I just feel bad for the developers (hence my postings on this thread) whose work process is perfectly fine having to deal with this same old rubbish day in day out on their own bloody forum. We already have sims that do more traditional business models, it's nice to have some variation. And to have guys who won't release rubbish at ANY cost... you have to respect that. If nothing is released.... so what.... at least they gave it a go.

I understand the point about motivation, but not the relevance the LFS development. LFS had an objective, it didn't eventuate and they withdrew from the community to great detriment. That's considerably different to your story where you met your clearly stated objective.

LFS development a fair topic to discuss and how that might be fixed and what the future of LFS is. If you can't talk realities for fear of "upsetting" the apple cart then there's more to worry about.

As for repsect etc...You primarily earn respect for being frank, honest and trustworthy. LFS devs have lost much of that with the stalled releases IMO and it's greatly overshadows their accomplishments to date.
Quote from Flame CZE :It’s from this thread from 2008.

This quote might have been posted here a few times, but I think it’s worth posting it again.

I find it quite strange that the FZ interiors, which were near complete 4 years ago, or updates of Westhill, which I assume they were also near complete (who knows though, the post doesn’t say anything about its progress), haven’t been released yet.

At least the new FZ and/or FX interiors would be quite a good update which could easily be released while Scawen works on the tyre physics, I guess. I have no idea why that hasn’t happened yet.

If you're still looking around here scawen, would you relase S3 with these improvments ? Or could it be that you have forgotten to release these stuff ?
Quote from Macfox :I understand the point about motivation, but not the relevance the LFS development. LFS had an objective, it didn't eventuate and they withdrew from the community to great detriment. That's considerably different to your story where you met your clearly stated objective.

LFS development a fair topic to discuss and how that might be fixed and what the future of LFS is. If you can't talk realities for fear of "upsetting" the apple cart then there's more to worry about.

As for repsect etc...You primarily earn respect for being frank, honest and trustworthy. LFS devs have lost much of that with the stalled releases IMO and it's greatly overshadows their accomplishments to date.

"It'll be done when it's done"

They couldn't be MORE frank.

People aren't talking about the development, what people are actually doing is moaning about the devs to hide away from their own inadequacies. And no one is talking 'realities'.

There hasn't been any public development in years regarding the tyre model, so there really isn't that much to talk or speculate about. I don't know how clear the developers have to be, but it's fairly obvious changing the tyre model is a mammoth task and can take years, if not decades to get right.... big deal.

iRacing is the polar opposite to LFS, and while of course it is more popular (so what?) there are still fundamental problems. With all that extra motivation and content, it still has real problems with the tyre model.
Quote from Intrepid :
People aren't talking about the development, what people are actually doing is moaning about the devs to hide away from their own inadequacies. And no one is talking 'realities'.

There hasn't been any public development in years regarding the tyre model, so there really isn't that much to talk or speculate about. I don't know how clear the developers have to be, but it's fairly obvious changing the tyre model is a mammoth task and can take years, if not decades to get right.... big deal.

Withdrawing from the community and providing essentially empty vague answers on fair questions isn't being frank.

Being frank would be explaining to the community what has transpired, why content is being withheld against an indefinitely milestone.

IMO there's plenty of realities in this thread. Despite the diehards post 07 denouncing those with concerns about the future and that it was totally ridiculous to propose we wouldn't see a major update before 2010, yet here we are now 3 years past that. That's the reality.

Not a big deal to us. Big deal for the devs, it's their livelihoods on the line.
Quote from Macfox :Withdrawing from the community and providing essentially empty vague answers on fair questions isn't being frank.

Being frank would be explaining to the community what has transpired, why content is being withheld against an indefinitely milestone.

'Withheld'? lol What the hell does that mean? they are under no obligation to provide anyone with anything. There's nothing frank about disclosing private business information. That's just pure stupidity, something I think the developers have be burnt from in the past.

You've paid for S2, got fantastic content, and quite frankly amazing value for money.

Again this has nothing to do with the developers, this is to do more about the skewed logic of entitlement that pervades society. Everyone thinks everyone should work for THEM and work for FREE.

The developer's business model is RIGHT FOR THEM. They couldn't be MORE clear... MORE FRANK. I don't want guys depressing themselves to suit MY needs. I'd much rather Scawan and co do things THEIR WAY rather than moaners ont he form who quite frankly have demonstrated anything like the ability and dedication to a project like LFS because if they did they wouldn't be moaning about LFS, because they'd actually understand the concept of "it's done when it's done"

CAPS CAPS CAPS
Quote from majod :... They won't tell you anything about development, god knows why. ...

Yeah, I know, and I won't tell you, sorry. Keep on guessing, it's lot of fun to read this thread.
It's pretty much amazing seeing almost the same people discussing same topics after all these years. Rock on! lol
Scawen, give them a cookie at least!

On other hand, it saddens me that there is still no new content in LFS. (even if it's not Rally pack)
The reason why the developers do not talk about what they do in details is because the forum goes batshit on them when they scrap ideas or leaves things out. Good examples of this is the rallypack and lx8.
But I rather have o deal with that shitstorm than having no news at all. A few have destroyed for all.

[Merged] Discussion regarding LFS development
(1578 posts, started )
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