The online racing simulator
Time for a different approach?
(179 posts, started )
Quote from edge3147 :I am only trying to spark a discussion.

The thing is, you're only next in line trying to do this. And you know, how people react, when they have to go through topics beaten to death all over again.
/OT
Quote from edge3147 :
They also were working on the Scirocco at the same time as well. 2 out of 3 things are finished now and we have not received anything.

The physics are getting rewritten mainly because of the Scirocco not behaving like in real life. So they can't release the Scirocco without the physics.
That is not what they said when they announced it. Also, if the tyres affect the scirocco, then it also effects the other cars in the same way. Nobody says they have to get it right the first time. For all we know they could release both the physics and scirocco and other bugs and flaws will be found and discovered. That's what happens with a game in development. Using the community as extra man power to find the bugs seems like a logical idea instead of relying on 3 men to perfect it on their own. For all team Scavier knows, we could have several physicists and software engineers willing to provide feedback and help, but instead they insist on leaving us in the dark.

After all, LFS is still in major development. Look at Project CARS, which is still in development. They release content that is not guaranteed to function 100% to real life, but the fact they ask the communities feedback on the flaws found helps them find the flaws much faster.


CARS has already raised over one million Euro in community funding. Team Scavier could use a similar method in which in return for the help received they could offer discounted S3 upgrades or even free upgrades for those who helped in a significant manner.
#54 - pipa
That made me ROFL, literally, but anyone want to post a serious reply to that?
I don't get it.
For some proof that lfs is losing the interest of everyone I have used LFSWorld to pull some stats.

just look at the pictures below. The top one, named yupppp, is the entire history of online use. The one named yupp, is the recent 30 days history, and the one named yuppp is from the last 300 days.

If you follow the pattern, the numbers have been on a steady decline acrossed the board.
Attached images
yupppp.jpg
yupp.jpg
yuppp.jpg
you also have to remember the only reason that they mentioned VWS and rockingham was because word got out that they were doing it... (leipzig games convention 2008)

if they had their way, we wouldn't have known about them at all...
Quote from bunder9999 :the only reason they mentioned VWS and rockingham was because word got out that they were doing it... (leipzig games convention 2008)

if they had their way, we wouldn't have known about them at all...

How does a 3 person team let the cat out of the bag?
Quote from edge3147 :How does a 3 person team let the cat out of the bag?

maybe they shouldn't have the game on display in public and not have a single mention of it on the front page or the forums... if it weren't for people on the forums who went to Rockingham and Leigzig, their secret would still have been a secret.
#61 - pipa
Quote from edge3147 :That is not what they said when they announced it. Also, if the tyres affect the scirocco, then it also effects the other cars in the same way.

They didn't release it, because ESP wouldn't function properly with the current tire physics.

Quote from edge3147 :Nobody says they have to get it right the first time. For all we know they could release both the physics and scirocco and other bugs and flaws will be found and discovered.

That is exactly what they have done using the testpatch forum. However when something isn't ready, it isn't ready and Scawen won't release half arsed stuff.

Also i don't see the point of this discussion, everything has been at least twice already.
Quote from bunder9999 :maybe they shouldn't have the game on display in public and not have a single mention of it on the front page or the forums... if it weren't for people on the forums who went to Rockingham and Leigzig, their secret would still have been a secret.

So they held a public event promoting both items and thought that nobody their would find out and bring the news back to the LFS community.

This reflects poorly on the devs, and the way they are handling it.

Being more honest and open with the community will do a lot to restore the confidence in past, present, and future users of their software.

Computers made today can handle a lot more than computers of 10 years ago. Programming for obsolete hardware will only delay production further, and the sooner they realize this, the better the future of this game and community will be.

Quote :
End-user license agreement
1.4 You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

-
(edge3147) DELETED by edge3147 : read previous post
#63 - col
Quote from edge3147 :So they held a public event promoting both items and thought that nobody their would find out and bring the news back to the LFS community.

This reflects poorly on the devs, and the way they are handling it.

If it were true, it would reflect badly on them. As its BS, it reflects badly on you.
Quote :

Being more honest and open with the community will do a lot to restore the confidence

I don't remember a single time when Scawen has been anything other than honest. He used to be open as well, but got burned so many times by all the whining brats that he stopped - you know, the kind of guys who misrepresent what the devs say and do and then use this distortion of the truth to attack LFS and its development process... exactly like you have been doing.

As far as targeting older hardware - that's yet another shallow straw-man argument. If you'd been paying any attention, you would understand that the optimisation is not from high end pc to low end, it's from maybe 3 frames per minute on high end to real time on any pc getting that down to a target mid range system would be trivial by comparison. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your endless whining.
I don't know what is up with this development bashing. In reality all it shows is how much people care about this game (in its own twisted way). If all those who make a fuss don't really care, they would just move on like everyone else. But they don't. That is because they all do care about this game. And they want it to continue.

I just hope all the sourpusses don't drive away all the future interesting forum personalities.
I think at this point it's pretty evident why they don't want to work in a regular job. They can't meet a deadline to save their live(lihood)s.

(semi-tongue-in-cheek comment, don't take it too seriously)
Quote from legoflamb :If all those who make a fuss don't really care, they would just move on like everyone else. But they don't. That is because they all do care about this game. And they want it to continue.

Eehhh, if something better comes along I make the switch tomorrow and never look back. Sorry.

If you try to create something which cannot be done in a period of time you need to abandon it. Last year Scawen mentioned that he didn't forsee such a long period of time for this tire physics thing for be being refined... And that... If he would knew it beforehand, would have released content earlier.

I thought.. If you realize that.. You give yourself a few more months to get the last bits done.. But.. Another FULL year has passed without news, no excitement at all.. Nothing..

It's safe to say that the current 'strategy' is one with a dead end. Nobody is waiting for new physics, so much other things can be done to create more realism. Tire physics are already on a high level and I personally doubt if it would have a positive effect on online simracing anyway. Who is actually waiting to sit with sweaty hands in a chair like Scawen excitedly reported last year? I think you only can make 5% of the online racing community happy with this. Maybe less...

The rest are average day to day racers, racing online because of the interaction. What do you expect as developer anyway, to create a real llife car feeling on a virtual road? With only a steering wheel? Get serious.
Good point, If those 3-4 years would be invested in other things, we could already have night racing, more tracks, more cars, damage features, cockpit updates and other exciting things. I just hope these things will come eventually, after the physics get finally updated.
Game development has changed a lot in recent years, 'a game' is built up from components and they are rarely all done by the same company any more. Car sims are getting a lot of development atm and LFS is one of the best sims out there, I wouldn't be surprised if they have been contracted to another sim and (for example) rf2's impressive new tyre model is Scawen's work.

As to the price, IMHO LFS is worth 30 euro for the realism and quality of racing even if it hasn't been updated for years, its still ahead of anything else. I paid an extra 30 to get S2 for a friend who hardly ever plays, LFS works perfectly with linux/wine and that makes it worth the 60 euro to me.
Quote from cargame.nl :snip snip

I am glad you posted that. That is exactly how I feel.

Quote from cargame.nl :
so much other things can be done to create more realism.

^^ That is a very accurate statement. I wonder if the devs have thought to mess with the surfaces the cars drive on instead of so much time into tyre physics. Ground friction plays a big role just like the tyre physics do.

Quote from Nadeo4441 :Good point, If those 3-4 years would be invested in other things, we could already have night racing, more tracks, more cars, damage features, cockpit updates and other exciting things.

Not only would it please the current users, that would have probably attracted a lot more new users AND provided more funding for the development. Surely the tyre physics could have been greatly improved over a 3-4 year span. Get something you like, release it, then improve upon it. They can't expect to get a perfect version and feel from the tyre physics if they do it all on their own. How many real world racers are on these forums and use this software that could provide feedback about the feel of the lfs in comparison to real cars? Surely they would be able to gauge better if they are working in the right direction, unless of course, all 3 devs are secretly real life racers too!
#70 - col
Quote from cargame.nl :
...Nobody is waiting for new physics, so much other things can be done to create more realism. Tire physics are already on a high level and I personally doubt if it would have a positive effect on online simracing anyway.

One of the most common complaints before Scawen started on this extended physics development cycle was about the poor realism of the tyres, both the temperature behaviour and the low speed grip.
If you disregard all the "I want XYZ" and "LFS is dead", and look at valid constructive criticisms about faults and weaknesses in the existing game, then those were definitely the biggest concern apart from the collision problems which are supposedly much improved.
If "Nobody is waiting for new physics", why were so many people criticizing the current tyre physics back then? fickle bunch eh?

For me, the biggest improvement to the game would be environmental. I would like to see dynamic track surface. Marbles, dirt on track, and if/when weather is introduced, puddles and drying line. A convincing dynamic track surface with robust online multiplayer capability is a huge challenge (I think this is the thing that's holding back the introduction of weather. The graphics would be pretty simple for someone as experienced as Scawen). It might involve a total rethink of the netcode, parts of the rendering engine, physics etc.
I wonder if one of the reasons Scawen want's to get the tyre physics done is because it will influence the development of dynamic track surfaces. Makes sense to do things in the right order. I'm probable just dreaming on that one though .
Quote from col :O
If "Nobody is waiting for new physics", why were so many people criticizing the current tyre physics back then? fickle bunch eh?

Back then it would be a good thing to concentrate on yes.. There was no big online race sim/game competition, other goodies still fresh to explore for everyone. 2009 was a full year to spend tweaking on those things. Nobody was asking back then, well this tires, it's not real.. Why don't you spend 5 years thinking on it and maybe something better pops up. We will wait. Didn't happen.
Quote from cargame.nl :Nobody is waiting for new physics, so much other things can be done to create more realism. Tire physics are already on a high level and I personally doubt if it would have a positive effect on online simracing anyway. Who is actually waiting to sit with sweaty hands in a chair like Scawen excitedly reported last year? I think you only can make 5% of the online racing community happy with this. Maybe less...

The rest are average day to day racers, racing online because of the interaction. What do you expect as developer anyway, to create a real llife car feeling on a virtual road? With only a steering wheel? Get serious.

Just to say, now you made me understand why people play ridiculously unrealistic F1 mods on rF and thinks that PCARS is a great racing sim
You people with the low system specs need to stick up for yourself and Scawen.
These losers that always say it is such a bad idea that the devs have made this sim available to a wider audience than the recent hit games need to reconsider why you even have this game installed on your computer.
If you don't like the product anymore, then the 1GHz keyboard players will still be happy without you.
My dog just farted.
I had to get the spray out.
Quote from Nadeo4441 :All we can do is wait. I have a feeling that the patch is close. (Well I had that feeling last summer too, whatever )

is that sarcasm??

i only come back every time i get a birthday email, and shock horror nothing has changed.

like i said before, this has all the hallmarks of the west brothers racing legends crash and burn.

feature creep, trying to program something out of your abilities, too much attention to crap that doesn't matter, little to no regard for fans and supporters. the updates get further and further apart until you would assume the programmers have died.

new forza is being pimped and i'll bet it will be out before lfs gets even an update, dont even worry about S3, if that ever happens i'll eat my duke nukem box. its vaporware, cept for the fanbois.

i now have two kids in school, i think i only actually had one child when the scirocco was promised. i expect them to have graduated colledge before i see the vw at the current progress rate.

trololoolo lo lo lo lo
Quote from Si Mclaren :Just to say, now you made me understand why people play ridiculously unrealistic F1 mods on rF and thinks that PCARS is a great racing sim

If you would have said Iracing then I say yes, you understand.

Rfactor2 is different but I don't think that is going to make it in the end. It's badly put together.

PCARS is the most promising project. They are writing the multiplayer part at the moment. If that is completed then it probably will be very empty here. New tire physics or not.

Time for a different approach?
(179 posts, started )
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