there was a system developed about 1930 that used one way valves in the exhaust manifold to draw fresh air in during the start of the induction stroke when the exhaust valve is still not closed. a certain company bought up the patent at the time but it lapsed later and it was used by a few manfufacturers in the 80's, volvo i think was one and possibly mazda, you can spot them as there's one or two light metal pipes going directly from the exhaust manifold to the filtered side of the airbox.

after market ones existed also under the name geferator, depending on how they were used it would produce either a noticable increase in low down torque or cleaner emissions.we fitted a few for some plant engineers at a local factory who were keen to see how they performed and if they had any use in static engines. if i recall correctly you had to reset the mixture to half the manufacturers levels (we're talking carbed cars here) and on some engines the imporvement really was quite dramatic, in particular i remember a volvo 360 taking 5th gear and full throttle from below 15 mph (this is on a carb and non mapped ignition remember) i sneaked one unit onto a mates 1300 alfasud ti he used for road rallies, two actually being a flat engine, and despite running a peaky set of cam he found it had more low down grunt than the standard cams.

of coure once mapped injection / ingition came out the idea disappeared but it was interesting at the time.


if you pause this vid at about 39 secs you can see 2 units with the pipes passing each end of the cam cover and the valve assemblies on the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2AduSENTEI

Quote from ajp71 :

Be fair Jamie has been giving his engineering insights for much longer than Blueflame!

Oh **** off Alex you pretentious twat.

You think you are so clever, so what you study mechanical engineering, I don't. Big deal. Does that mean my opinions are invalid?

I'm a member on one of the largest forums in the UK (ukmkivs.net), which if for VW Golfs if you're not clever enough to work that out - and pretty much all the Golfs come with EGRs and the diesels come with DMFs. My car came with a DMF and an EGR.

Failure of DMF is not a question of if, but rather when. Every single person I know has had it who has a diesel, plus about 65% of diesel owners on ukmkivs.net have either had to already change their DMF or chose to replace it with a Single Mass Flywheel. I have done the latter, along with an uprated clutch to take more power. My car idles, with a Single Mass Flywheel, with almost no audiable difference to a regular dual mass. There are kits out there with damper springs which in effect do the job of the dual mass flywheel but on the clutch plate itself.

There are no additional vibrations and no death rattle. The Helix and Sachs Stage 2/3 kits are noisy but the payoff is increase clamping force and personally I think if my diesel were pumping out 200bhp+ I would want this death rattle as it's part of the character of the car.

As for the EGR - Let's see, mine was getting clogged, not enough to cause problems, (I do quite a lot of miles so it's hardly sitting in traffic, run a trusted fuel additive as well and up until I stopped doing this I hardly had any smoke on full throttle) but enough for me to notice until, as I said, it was disabled and it cleared itself out. The slight stutter at idle which was always there when warm disappeared after the EGR was mapped out as well.. I checked it a couple of weeks ago and you can almost see the metal on the inner wall. P

Most EGRs look like this...you tell me this is the product of an efficient design..



Most people again on the owners forum, both petrol and diesel, have suffered EGR issues. My Dad's car (07 Lexus IS220d) was in the dealership receiving a full engine rebuild for 7 weeks in total, because firstly the EGR caused limp mode and had to be replaced (would have cost £800 if it wasn't under warranty) and then a few weeks later, the DPF broke due to contamination, partly due to a work piston ring and this was also attributed to the build up in the EGR that caused his car to go in to the garage before. I should add it also had a replacement dual mass flywheel due to vibrations and noise..funny that. In total over £7000 has been spent on warranty claims by Lexus UK. And that's for the engine rebuild, flywheel and EGR. Yeah, these items are clearly good.

So in short, Alex, who needs to have done an apprenticeship in a garage, when you have enough knowledge to get by and have the first hand experience of these mechanical parts.

In short, shut your face.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

In short, shut your face.

:scared:
(No offence Jamie : ) )

way to be even more of a dick than you usually are S14
whats your problem

your need for recognition is so bad that you just directly attack people who throw the slightest of picky remarks at you now? I hope you are not surprised WHY people do so, considering your manner on these forums.

Far from it, just every time I post anything mechanical Alex has to try and "get one over". Anyone else, I couldn't care.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Big deal. Does that mean my opinions are invalid?

Yes, it does.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I'm a member on one of the largest forums in the UK (ukmkivs.net), which if for VW Golfs if you're not clever enough to work that out - and pretty much all the Golfs come with EGRs and the diesels come with DMFs. My car came with a DMF and an EGR.

Remember - 99% of posts on forums are by people who don't know what they're talking about. So the 'largest' forum just means the 'stupidest' forum. Do you honestly think that your forum members are (even collectively) brighter than people that design engines???!?!?!?!??!?!

Failure of dual mass flywheels (I'm not a retard, so I don't need to abbreviate everything) is actually quite rare. The people that don't suffer from the problem don't feel the need to harp on about it. The people that do suffer a failure go on and on about it, and think it means they know about vibration, damping etc. These people should be put down.

A lot of people think that removing exhaust gas recirculation increases power. It doesn't. I don't know of a system that works at full throttle. Below full throttle it doesn't actually matter what the power output is (you can just open the throttle more), but it does matter what your economy and efficiency is. Yes, they can become clogged (like exhausts, throttle bodies, intake and exhaust tracts - the process to clean them is often referred to as de-coking), but this is usually due to poor fuel, poor driving (too low revs, not enough high load use, short journeys [particularly bad for exhaust recirculation systems] etc).

You do not need to use an additive. Just buy decent fuel in the first place. Total cost will be less, mileage will improve.

No clever human being has ever mistaken excessive vibration as characterful. Noise - yes. Harshness - yes. But vibration is ALWAYS reduced to minimum acceptable values.

Tristain, DMFs do fail unfortunately. And it is a common occurance

I agree those people who think removing EGRs increase power are a bit of an idiot. Luckily I never mentioned any power increases, nor increase vibration rrom an SMF.

The "Death rattle" I refer to is this - I actually wish my single mass flywheel made this noise.

Generally, the inlet manifold and the EGR get clogged on many diesels, especially considering the peoples cars on the forum aren't exactly driven...slowly..shall we say..it's either the fuel or the actual system. Considering diesels are not tested for emissions, the whole point of having an EGR is pointless in my eyes. They serve no practical purpose, what benefits do they bring...cleaner running? Not really, better economy, no...all they really do is break/get clogged up.

Unsure about the whole "superfuel" myth though, I've been running about 250ml of 2 stroke oil per tankful for the last 1200 miles to see what happens, not really noticed much improvement, infact any - at least not audiable. I presume it's providing slightly extra amounts of lubrication to the top end but we'll see.. so next fill up I'll be using some BP Ultimate diesel and run that over a couple of tanks.

I remember when I had my car remapped I had it on Ultimate diesel then and it felt like it was flying so I'm hoping the fuel will improve things such as noise and take away that last bit of smoke. I normally fill up at Sainsburys because I get Nectar points but then I realised BP do those as well. :>

42,000 results. From nearly a billion cars with EGR? That's not a regular failure in my eyes.

Driving 'quickly' doesn't mean it's good for EGR. Are they warming the engine up properly before driving 'quickly'? Are they doing any short journeys? etc etc. Diesels are tested for emissions - the whole road tax thing is done via emissions. Just because you're too thick to see what EGR is for and why it is fitted doesn't make it pointless. Cleaner running, lower emissions, less soot and more miles per tank.

You put oil in your diesel? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

You had your car remapped? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

I wonder if IQ is inversely proportional to body mass index. Stephen Hawking seems quite bright.

Chillax bitches.

Quote from tristancliffe :

42,000 results. From nearly a billion cars with EGR? That's not a regular failure in my eyes.
blahblah blah

Diesels are not tested for MOT purposes so after the initial type approval test emissions are pointless. They have a visual smoke test.

Regardless of what you think I have seen that EGRs and DMFs are both pointless and prone to failure so I think (thus my opinion is valid) that it's a bad idea.

2 stroke oil is combustible so it leaves no more internal residue than regular diesel would. You could run a 2 stroke engine on diesel oil if you wanted actually. And yes, laugh at my car which has been remapped. Obviously you've never had a "before" and "after" of a turbocharged/diesel car with a map. I get about 6-7more MPG (an extra 80 or so miles per tank, best before a remap was around 535, I can regularly get 600+ now and my driving style hasn't changed) plus a dyno proven (awaits your comments about inaccurate dynos) 149bhp, 48bhp over standard, plus torque went from about 211 to nearly 270. I raced a 2.8 Z4 and had it to 70mph. Enough said really. It's about the same as a clio 182cup which isn't a slow car. Anyway I couldn't care if you sit there going ha ha ha ha. Hard to take a life lesson from someone who enjoys stuffing his face with jaffa cakes.

Just because they aren't tested at MoT doesn't make the engine systems pointless. They don't test the interior heater, but you wouldn't say that was pointless.

You have seen they're pointless? Have you tried writing to the car companies to tell them?

More power, more torque AND more efficiency, whilst retaining drivability? You'd wonder why they didn't do that to begin with. What are the downsides? There has to be some, otherwise the millions of monies spent making/mapping the engine in the factory must have been wasted. Either that, or you're mistaken, wrong or have been deceived.

I took part in a competition to eat Jaffa Cakes. You eat ten times that amount in day. Whether you should take life-advice from me is debatable, but you ought to at least learn something about cars/engineering/science before making stuff up.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I raced a 2.8 Z4 and had it to 70mph.

LOL

I'm sorry, but he wasn't trying.

Quote from tristancliffe :

More power, more torque AND more efficiency, whilst retaining drivability? You'd wonder why they didn't do that to begin with

I'm not saying this applies here, but remember many manufacturers use the same engine on many cars, making a cold, "warm" and "hot" variant different with nothing but the map

he was jack. the z4s do it in 0-60 in 6.5-7 second, i can consistently get 7.8 time after time. so maybe he missed a shift or got a bad launch but i was quite proud.

Quote from Jakg :

I'm not saying this applies here, but remember many manufacturers use the same engine on many cars, making a cold, "warm" and "hot" variant different with nothing but the map

I think that's very rare, although I'd welcome examples. Usually a change of cam profile, cam timing or other detail is used as well. Purposefully mapping an engine badly won't do good things for the carbon taxation (whereby each manufacturer has to keep its average CO2 per mile below a certain figure across the whole range).

Quote from tristancliffe :

I think that's very rare, although I'd welcome examples. Usually a change of cam profile, cam timing or other detail is used as well. Purposefully mapping an engine badly won't do good things for the carbon taxation (whereby each manufacturer has to keep its average CO2 per mile below a certain figure across the whole range).

An example:

MG ZT / Rover 75.

Engine was designed to produce ~115 HP, with an engine which originally produced ~170 HP (with a different turbo), as that was the original performance they were aiming for (i.e. well below any BMW)

When BMW quit, MGR did some testing and found they could easily get is to produce ~135 HP, with nothing more than an ECU map. They sold the two models concurrently for a while, while offering the "XPower Upgrade" to existing owners, and then only sold the 135 model.

BMW / VAG do similar with their diesels afaik.

EDIT - It wasn't originally mapped "badly", they simply weren't after a lot of power. Tax rates were unaffected, although tbh there wasn't such a focus on this / company car bands 10 years ago. MPG was also largely unaffected, as 115 HP was a little low for such a lardy car, so having a little more power didn't make much of a difference.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

The "Death rattle" I refer to is this - I actually wish my single mass flywheel made this noise.

No need, try running larger grain bearing sand or get your crankshaft unbalanced for a bit more character.

The reason dual mass flywheels are not commonly used in fast road and competition cars is down to the fact the people who make competition clutches and flywheels don't understand how they work and it's not cost effective to develop them. To determine what type of flywheel would be the best compromise for a fast road or competition car (which is like comparing an oil tanker and a powerboat) would require so much maths your head would explode.

Quote :

I presume it's providing slightly extra amounts of lubrication to the top end but we'll see.. so next fill up I'll be using some BP Ultimate diesel and run that over a couple of tanks.

To get 2 stroke oil to work in a 4 stroke you need to take out the valve stem seals then your cams will be nice and slippery. The trick to lubricating the bottom end is to take out the piston rings, you'll get a bit of piston slap but the extra lubrication on the crank is worth it. If you're really serious then reroute your fuel pump to give proper 2 stroke style crankcase lubrication, route a hose and stick it in the hole where the sump plug used to go.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Diesels are not tested for MOT purposes so after the initial type approval test emissions are pointless. They have a visual smoke test.

Sure emissions are a waste of time...

Quote :

Regardless of what you think I have seen that EGRs and DMFs are both pointless and prone to failure so I think (thus my opinion is valid) that it's a bad idea.

If the great minds of the world used that kind of thought process we'd still be driving horse and carts. Or maybe you'd have rejected the idea of the wheel as well because you couldn't fathom it?

Go and do some menial work and leave the thinking to the clever people who believe in maths...

Quote :

2 stroke oil is combustible so it leaves no more internal residue than regular diesel would.

Damn it I didn't realise that! I've just spent the last few weeks writing a 40 page report on how (very expensive, specially formulated ie. not from Halfords) two stroke oil doesn't burn cleanly in an engine that was designed for it and leaves all manner of horrible mess behind (carbon deposits, just like the ones you posted a picture of!). How silly of me, I should have just got you to write my report for me in five minutes!

You might find if you only stick BS EN 590 grade diesel down the fuel filler it'll run like those crazy Germans intended.

Jamie, just stop it... you've proven many times already how incompetent your technical knowledge about cars is, and everytime you have another attempt, you keep to embarrass yourself even further...

Dad, my computer died! - Why did it die, son? - One of my Sims invented perpetual motion and by breaking the laws of phyisc the universe crashed...

Jibber, I challenge you to find one thing i've said regarding this which is wrong. It's things I gained knowledge of first hand...so no.

Quote from ajp71 :

No need, try running larger grain bearing sand or get your crankshaft unbalanced for a bit more character.

Will bear that in mind thanks

Quote :

The reason dual mass flywheels are not commonly used in fast road and competition cars is down to the fact the people who make competition clutches and flywheels don't understand how they work and it's not cost effective to develop them. To determine what type of flywheel would be the best compromise for a fast road or competition car (which is like comparing an oil tanker and a powerboat) would require so much maths your head would explode.

Regardless of what their use it for - Dual mass flywheels are used in loads of diesels and other performance cars (petrols inc) even up to the 335. However torque delivery will cause the diesel DMFs to fail more than a petrol. Which is why they generally fail. Mine was OK touch wood until about 4000 miles after the remap when it started to give an aggressive thud when accelerating from low RPMS (1500rpm in 4th for example). My Dads car was standard and had done 78k when it failed. My friends car is a brand new 61 plate Corsa D which occasionally has the feeling of a failing DMF and it's only done 3500 miles...

Quote :

To get 2 stroke oil to work in a 4 stroke you need to take out the valve stem seals then your cams will be nice and slippery. The trick to lubricating the bottom end is to take out the piston rings, you'll get a bit of piston slap but the extra lubrication on the crank is worth it. If you're really serious then reroute your fuel pump to give proper 2 stroke style crankcase lubrication, route a hose and stick it in the hole where the sump plug used to go.

An excellent suggestion.

Quote :

Sure emissions are a waste of time...

They are in the grand scale of things. Aside from intial taxation purposes in diesels, they serve no purpose. Diesels are not tested for emissions, they are tested for smoke. Environmental reasons I'm not getting involved in as I don't care how many hydrocarbons my car emits. The warmer the better in my opinion so I welcome global warming. I'm sure Racer_X can provide further info.

Quote :

If the great minds of the world used that kind of thought process we'd still be driving horse and carts. Or maybe you'd have rejected the idea of the wheel as well because you couldn't fathom it?

Yeah you're right.

Quote :

Go and do some menial work and leave the thinking to the clever people who believe in maths...

As soon as some clever people come along, I'll be happy to do that.

Quote :

Damn it I didn't realise that! I've just spent the last few weeks writing a 40 page report on how (very expensive, specially formulated ie. not from Halfords) two stroke oil doesn't burn cleanly in an engine that was designed for it and leaves all manner of horrible mess behind (carbon deposits, just like the ones you posted a picture of!). How silly of me, I should have just got you to write my report for me in five minutes!

Again you think you know me oh so well. It was Fully Synthetic Castrol GPS. I'd never put any Halfords/Supermarket branded oil or vital fluids in my cars... I only used it because I found an old bottle from when I accidental bought 2stroke instead of 4 stroke for my Triumph. Luckily I noticed before I put it in the bike.. It was a month after buying before I got a chance to use it, so I couldn't get a refund. I had read some positive reports of people using 2 stroke oil as an additive in diesel so thought I would try rather than throw it in the bin.

I did check my fuel filter a few days ago to see if it was clogging it up but it was actually very clean still. (I fitted a new one about 1200 miles ago) just before I started running 2 stroke oil as an additive. As I said whether it worked or not was one thing; it's certainly not going to cause any more build up than it would with ordinary diesel.

Quote :

You might find if you only stick BS EN 590 grade diesel down the fuel filler it'll run like those crazy Germans intended.

'twas Tristans suggestion, why don't you pass that advice to him. Some people on the forums say it reduces smoke and they notice a smoother idle, I will try it for myself and find out. Either way it'll do it no harm but then again what do I know since I am not a chemical engineer. And anyway it's only £3.50 more per tankful so no great loss either way. It'll either work and I'll be happy or it won't and I'll go back to supermarket fuel.

Cheers alex

Quote from Jakg :

It wasn't originally mapped "badly", they simply weren't after a lot of power.

In which case it was mapped badly and engine efficiency will have been compromised as a result.

Producing a simple open loop ECU calibration for an engine takes months if not years of dyno testing, developing a closed loop calibration is something you do once a decade. The idea that a whole industry exists where stupid people 'remap' a car in half an hours testing, or not having ever seen the engine in the first place is comical.

The enlightened side of the rolling road/dyno testing/men in sheds who remap engines industry are simply trying to get a modified engine to run almost as well as a production engine would.

Whilst highly complex with an enormous number of variables the correct ECU calibration will be the best compromise for road use, anybody who tells you different is an idiot.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

However torque delivery will cause the diesel DMFs to fail more than a petrol.

No engineering component has ever failed because of torque, shear stress causes failure. How you get from torque to shear stress requires an engineering degree.

Quote :

Again you think you know me oh so well. It was Fully Synthetic Castrol GPS.

It is still two stroke oil! That's like saying your putting fine Cognac in your fuel tank, it makes no difference whatsoever, it is still completely the wrong chemical!

Anything you stick in your fuel (especially things that aren't fuel) will effect combustion, just not necessarily in the way it says on the packet. Two stroke oil is a frankly awful design compromise and why two stroke direct injection will never find its way into road vehicles (at least not with the traditional charge air lubrication concept). I would imagine (but do not know) that racing two stroke engines with modern oil injection systems will reduce their oil injection to dangerously low levels or stop it completely for short periods.

Quote :

'twas Tristans suggestion, why don't you pass that advice to him. Some people on the forums say it reduces smoke and they notice a smoother idle, I will try it for myself and find out. Either way it'll do it no harm but then again what do I know since I am not a chemical engineer. And anyway it's only £3.50 more per tankful so no great loss either way. It'll either work and I'll be happy or it won't and I'll go back to supermarket fuel.

BS EN 590 is the standard stuff that comes out the black pumps in the UK, I'm fairly certain your handbook specifies this (or the ISO equvilent) and doesn't mention two stroke oil.

Quote from blackbird04217 :

After a quick search I was surprised not to find this. But LMAO, what a great idea! Unlimited power;

http://www.eugeneleafty.com/DE ... stions%20%28pg%201%29.htm

Not only would it kill the motor, it would blow up the engine after a short ammount of time if it didn't due to the exponential power output that would be uncontrolable...

Great idea, until you think about it though

Quote from ajp71 :

No engineering component has ever failed because of torque, shear stress causes failure. How you get from torque to shear stress requires an engineering degree.

Which I don't have. The extra torque produces extra stress, blah blah blah. 1+1=3.

Quote :

It is still two stroke oil! That's like saying your putting fine Cognac in your fuel tank, it makes no difference whatsoever, it is still completely the wrong chemical!

It may be "wrong" but often things which aren't "prescribed" by manufacturers, etc, work in a beneficial manner.

Quote :

Anything you stick in your fuel (especially things that aren't fuel) will effect combustion, just not necessarily in the way it says on the packet. Two stroke oil is a frankly awful design compromise and why two stroke direct injection will never find its way into road vehicles (at least not with the traditional charge air lubrication concept). I would imagine (but do not know) that two stroke engines with modern oil injection systems will reduce their oil injection to dangerously low levels or stop it completely for short periods.

Yeah, I appreciate it can affect things, both negatively and positively in terms of combustion; but in the quantities applied (we're talking 250ml per 52-55l of diesel, it won't make a difference. You could quite happily put 2 or 3 litres of petrol in with 50L of diesel with no issues; I wouldn't recommend it but if you accidentally fill up with a couple of quids worth of petrol you'll be OK! I think they stopped 2 strokes on the road due to emissions gubbins anyway; the last remaining torch carrying the 2 stroke flame were bikes/mopeds such as the RS125, Derbi, etc, and they've all been forced to go to 4 stroke unfortunately. I think lawn mowers, etc however are exempt but I don't think I'll see one on the A34 any time soon.

Quote :

BS EN 590 is the standard stuff that comes out the black pumps in the UK, I'm fairly certain your handbook specifies this (or the ISO equvilent) and doesn't mention two stroke oil.

Yes, BS EN 590is the standard diesel specification - There is no mention of 2 stroke oil however what is the harm in trying... for example when cleaning things like the variable nozzles and intake manifolds, and EGRs - you can buy a specific cleaning kit (such as Innotec) but people have found that Mr Muscle works really well too.

I'm aware it's not "recommended" by manufactures but my car is not under warranty and has done nearly 120k so what's the harm? Oil changes every 10k should mean all things considered it's got a lot of miles left in it regardless of whether I run 2 stroke oil or not. Which I won't be when I try the BP Ultimate; plus I've found no tangible benefit in 2 stroke oil so likely won't run it agai.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Which I don't have. The extra torque produces extra stress, blah blah blah. 1+1=3.

Wrong, the stress in a dual mass flywheel fitted to a large diesel will be the same (or probably a lot less, but definitely not more) than a dual mass flywheel fitted to a small petrol engine.

Quote :

It may be "wrong" but often things which aren't "prescribed" by manufacturers, etc, work in a beneficial manner.

Putting oil in your fuel isn't going to work though, no matter what you or other people on the internet may think. You would leave far less carbon deposits all over your engine if you replaced your two stroke oil with piss.

Quote :

Yeah, I appreciate it can affect things, both negatively and positively in terms of combustion; but in the quantities applied (we're talking 250ml per 52-55l of diesel, it won't make a difference.

It will make a huge difference, but you probably won't notice the difference. Modern ECUs are very good at trying to work out what's going on and what the hell you're shoving in your fuel tank. Modern diesels (with exceptions) will happily run on most of the rubbish fuels around the world and will run on BS 2869 class A2 (although that's a naughty thing to do) no problem, most will also run at a push on kerosene type aviation fuels and even MGO. It's not recommended, engine efficiency will be affected and who knows what'll happen if you use it in the long term (I don't think even VWs billion dollar test programs cover what happens if you decide to stick something that isn't a fuel in the fuel tank) but it will run or try its best to do so and you probably won't even notice the difference.

I havn't really been following this thread, but are you people saying I can buy a diesel, (Brand new) Clean out the engine entirely, Then power said car with 100% monster energy drink or tea? I'll do it, too. Even if I only get 2 feet.

/retardedmoment