Good work

Quote from dekojester :

• Changed penalty for failure to use qualifying driver from loss of fastest lap to a one-lap penalty, which will be effective from Round 6. Note that if you inform us in good time, and have a reasonable reason, we'll let it slide, unless it gets abused then teams who abuse it are subject to the penalty.
  

What is meant here?

A driver who drives a qual must drive in the race.

ah ok, thanks

Talked briefly with an GTAL league admin about this rule months ago and it still catches my attention. I need to comment it, like I did after IGTC round 1 (with the result that there is no more wave arround rule in IGTC).

GTAL has had very good admining all season, no doubts about it.

But here IMO one of the worse racing rules ever invented - even somehow practised IRL as well, I can read:

"During a Safety Car period, all lapped cars between the race leader and the last car on the lead lap at the time of the Safety Car will be waved around to put all lead lap cars at time of deployment in line."

See attached file as an example - a safety car period has just started, race leader is picked up by the safety car:

- 3rd and 5th will get waved arround now as the only cars.
- 1st and 2nd before about a lap ahead of 3rd will now find themselves under pressure once more.
- 3rd will be just behind 2nd on the safety car restart.
- 4th before only a few seconds away from the podium (3rd) will now be a lap down to 3rd.
- 5th before almost a lap down on 4th, will now be just behind 4th on the safety car restart.

This rule has too much impact on any race IMO, maybe with the exception of a 10000 laps oval race with 45 secs. average laptimes. Please consider some rule change.

"Wave arround rules":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_car
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_dog

Actually I like this Rule and the big impact of it.
Makes the race and a safety car period much more exciting.
Just my opinion.......

I've got to agree with Kolz even though sa| has been the beneficiary of that rule a few times. It's one hell of a free pass when the race is trying to decide which team is the best. Quite frusturating when you work hard enough to lap someone and then *poof* they're right behind you as if the last few hours never happened.

Racing has always been 75% skill and 25% luck. This is no different.

Tbh, I think this rule adds a totally new element to endurance racing. Don't forget, this is an amateur league, almost a feeder towards true, unrestricted endurance racing amongst the fastest drivers in the world, this just encourages competition, IMO. At least with rules like this, it's not the end of the world if you're at the end result of a pile-up, which will actually encourage teams to continue racing, rather than giving up when 2-3 laps down. It's hard for the big teams to have a huge lead wiped out by a SC, of course, but in contrast, it's a great test of skill to discipline yourself, and manage safety cars, and other disadvantages during the races to succeed, you don't really find this anywhere else, as far as I know, and I'd love it to stay in the rules.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Racing has always been 75% skill and 25% luck. This is no different.

Well yes, but the issue is that this is TOO lucky and TOO kind to those who are a lap down, and take a way a lot of the skill involved. An alternative would be for the SC to pick up the leader, letting any one between the SC when it comes out and the leader to pass. Some cars still get lucky but it's not quite as forgiving.

At FE3 I actually got two laps back because of this rule. I was 2 laps down (we had issues ) with another car 1 lap down behind me. We were both 5 seconds ahead of the leader so the SC didn't pick us up. When we got to the tail end of the queue I was 1 lap down and the car behind was on the lead lap so I get waved around. As much as I appreciated that it was just too much and I'm sure anyone who I got right up behind after my 2nd time around felt very ripped off.

If it changed to simply "Cars between SC and leader waived around" it would also eat up much fewer laps under SC because they wouldn't have to spend a full lap calling out cars THEN wait a few more for them to get around.

As it is, having a SC basically be a huge "RESET" button for the race is a bit silly.

Of course doing it this way does lead to a lot of cars a lap down in between the leaders, which is probably why it's done the way it's currently done. Makes it more interesting in the middle of the race too.

I don't like that rule either. In my opnion it just removes the endurance side of the racing, and divides the different green flag phases into quali races basically. It also means that on tracks likely to give a lot of SC periods, you can actually cruise during the first hour and get three laps down and still be eligible for the victory in the end. It isn't fair IMO.

At some point, a difference between sport and catch should be done. It's clear that this rule is making the racing more entertaining. But is the goal of motorracing is really to make the racing as much entertaining as possible? Shouldn't motorracing secure a minimum of equity to everyone?


Anyway, as Rudi said, the admins did a great job this year, probably a better one than last year. Of course there's gonna be numerous debates on various side of the rulebook before the next season, but remember: the perfect ruleset doesn't exist, and there's still going to be endless controversy on this kind of points, simply because there will always be different visions and opinions on motorracing.

yep I agree with Yann and Spencer ! SC is really a great idea, it add some strategy and close up the leader. But I think it is a bit unfair to let everyone gaining their lap down :s

Maybe I'm a bit to much hardcore with endurance (live in Le Mans ^^) but SC in Le Mans is really only used in case of serious danger and isn't used to make the race more exciting (in fact a SC period always add some excitment ^^ changing strategy, gap...).

Anyway rules this season were really well and admin did a fantastic job ! keep it up

As a member of one of the weaker teams in the series, I liked the rule . Our tires hardly ever got cold because we were racing around catching the queue.

If teams were racing for prizes or some other tangible reward, I'd definitely encourage revamping the rule, but since we're not, I don't think it's necessary (pride doesn't count) .
Other than Spencer's situation at FE3, can anyone else give an example of a team that excessively benefited or was punished by this rule? (Genuine question, I'd like to know.) If there is a lot of evidence to support a change, I'm willing to be convinced. I'm not, yet.
Jonathan

PS

Quote :

a difference between sport and catch should be done

I don't know what you mean by this. Sport vs spectacle, maybe?

Conquest racing @ final round...Think they were a lap down when SC come (maybe i'm wrong, in this case sorry)

Quote from MoMo92i :

Conquest racing @ final round...Think they were a lap down when SC come (maybe i'm wrong, in this case sorry)

Well, I know a lot of people can pull a situation or two that they think they remember out of the top of their heads. Spencer's thorough explanation is more what I need. This example doesn't help me decide if the rule should be changed. Conquest was waved around in error because of confusion due to a disconnect, that doesn't mean that the rule is wrong or right, just that they shouldn't have been waved around.

Quote from MoMo92i :

Conquest racing @ final round...Think they were a lap down when SC come (maybe i'm wrong, in this case sorry)

Actually they were on the lead lap in 4th position and accidentally waved around (we mistook them for a lap down car as they had timed out) - ironically though, it would have put them directly behind Piropo as he failed in T2 on the restart, so a bit of good fortune there

SR have lost out a crazy amount in quite a few races tbh. I hate the rule, and it is a fact it has cost us a few race wins, but some like it from my own team. Personally, I can handle the safety car closing gaps (just), but gaining laps back is just stupid IMHO.

Example:

Your racing at FE3, 1:16 second laptimes. You are 45 seconds behind the leader and are coming to the final stint where you are putting in your best driver (position in this doesn't matter). You pit with 1h 7m left because your best driver is better on tires.

As you pit you lose 35 seconds and come out of the pits 5 seconds behind the leader, at that very moment an SC comes out. You are not caught a lap down, no wave around.

Tough luck? Same tough luck if you get beat by a team that was waved around tbh.


*I don't really care about the rule, as I am not in the league, but I just like to stir the pot.

that's the same in IGTC...keeping your best driver for the end of the race is just the key...if there is a SC That's what we did on each races ! (whereas when there is no SC I generally prefer do the contrary)

Last safety car was before the mid of the race so it didn't change so much the result because indeed Cq were fast (maybe the fastest on track) and finally the same teams were on the top...Cq, CoRe, SR, CW (DC), E-Team...but I think if SC closing gap is the race, enable everyone to come back to the leading lap is just an unfair advantage. not a question of right or wrong, just about equity it never really happened now but for example last round, 7karat were a lap down after only 1 or 2 hours didn't remember exactly. After the two safety car they were back into the podium. that's my point if you don't agree that's your point Anyway i'm not admin so let's wait what admins gonna do !

Edit : I have found a better example : Round 6 winner was a lap down before the safety car...

Well they had to work through the field to do that don't they? It's not they start first after being put on the lead lap.

It can be unfair both ways, why not make first 3-5 cars that are a lap down get their lap back? Or is that still unfair?

Only reason I like this rule is that it does some justice to those who lose connection during a race, which I see as unfair as we have no control over it. In a 6 hour race, the fastest team times out after 4 hours and a 75 second lead at AS4R (this is an example). They timeout at the very end of the lap and lose that lap, but barely get a driver back in so they don't lose two. After 30 minutes a XRR gets stuck in the sand = SC. The fastest team now gets their lap back and start 25th in queue. In the last 1.5 hours they work their way to the win by 10 seconds. Is this also an unfair win?

/me stirs and runs again

Hi guys.
Dont cry now , after seson , abaut the rules in the league.
You all sign up for that and accept it how it is standing in the rulebook.
This all give me the Deja-vu feeling , when we asked in 2009 NDR cart series after start seson the "lucky dog" rules implementation , and what was the answer?
Did you remmeber?

Quote from JayEyeBee :

As a member of one of the weaker teams in the series, I liked the rule . Our tires hardly ever got cold because we were racing around catching the queue.

You might be running on 24th and still get punished by this rule if your car isn´t on the right spot at the right time - but 25th to 32th are in between leader and last car on leading lap.
Looks like you have been on the right spot at the right time so far.
Weaker team or not isn´t a valid point either actually. Check the rule once more. It´s about if your car at the moment you see the yellow flag message,that´s the point of reference I asume, is situated in between the race leader and the last car on the leading lap only.
And this is a 50/50 chance (not sure about the % rate actually).

Quote from PMD9409 :

Example:
Your racing at FE3, 1:16 second laptimes. You are 45 seconds behind the leader and are coming to the final stint where you are putting in your best driver (position in this doesn't matter). You pit with 1h 7m left because your best driver is better on tires.
As you pit you lose 35 seconds and come out of the pits 5 seconds behind the leader, at that very moment an SC comes out. You are not caught a lap down, no wave around. Tough luck? Same tough luck if you get beat by a team that was waved around tbh.

That would be a bad outcome for you - caused by having a SC in a race.
But what if 3rd to 10th place would be in between you and the leader? Cars almost a lap down before would then again fight you for 2nd.
That´s SC plus this rule = even worse for you and not really the "same tough luck".
And finally: Also a car having had a timeout can become a victim of this rule as it´s only about where you car is situated at a certain point of time because it´s not just like that all lapped cars will get waved arround automatically.

I think I made my point and hope that existing as well as future league admins might fall over this thread some time.

Quote from Ki-Men :

Hi guys.
Dont cry now , after seson , abaut the rules in the league.
You all sign up for that and accept it how it is standing in the rulebook.
This all give me the Deja-vu feeling , when we asked in 2009 NDR cart series after start seson the "lucky dog" rules implementation , and what was the answer?
Did you remmeber?

As far as I can tell, no one is crying about the rule, we're discussing if we want it to change. So far the discussion has been civil, and dare I say, reasonably productive. It may not change anything, but so far it's not a debate I'm ashamed to be a participant, yet. I can point to examples of crying in the forums, this isn't it. Do you have an opinion on this rule?

Quote from R.Kolz :

. . .Weaker team or not isn´t a valid point either actually . .

There was no point in my 'weaker team' statement, it was just a little self-deprecating joke.

Quote from R.Kolz :

You might be running on 24th . . .

If I understand the gist of the rest of your argument, you feel that luck is too much of a factor in whether or not you benefit or are punished by the wave around rule. Point taken.

Quote from PMD9409 :

*snip*

I think it would be a nice improve with one or some lucky dog

Quote from JayEyeBee :

PS
I don't know what you mean by this. Sport vs spectacle, maybe?

Yes, well. I'm still a bit uncommon with some transparent words, catch=wrestling in French, so I mixed up the two words.