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Realism Issue - FBM rollover and 2 wheels driving!
(57 posts, started )
Realism Issue - FBM rollover and 2 wheels driving!
Yesterday while driving online, at the last corner before the start/finish straight I used the left kerb and the outcome was a spectacular rollover.

Watch the attached upside.mpr file at 1:30" and you'll find out what I'm talking about.

I drived on the kerb in a bad way. Probably my approach wasn't a good one. In real life that would have a very different result, slipping and loosing control maybe, but not a rollover. That kind of accident is extremely difficult to happen by a kerb because of the downforce a one seater produces.

If I'm not mistaken I have rolled over FBM in the first corner as well...

And I have something more weird to report. After the chicane it happened once to drive FBM on two wheels. Almost - if not absolutely - impossible for a car like FBM. The incident is saved in the second .mpr I have attached, "two wheels - lap 5 - chicane.mpr".

And something about damage model. After the roll over occurred, the roll bar that should protect drivers head appears to be completely damaged and the driver's head out of the cockpit! Graphics should be improved at that point. Structures that are intended to protect drivers should not get smashed easily.
Attached files
upside.rar - 337.3 KB - 139 views
save - lap 5 - corner 1.rar - 653.5 KB - 103 views
Remember that most setups used in LFS is by far very, very inrealistic. The way some people use the pressure in the tires, aswell as the spring settings, will make it a fairly resonable thing to happend.

However, there are some downthings with the current tire physic engine, but that is getting an upgrade within the year.
Quote from The Very End :but that is getting an upgrade within the year.

Careful with your quotes. We don't know if and when the new update is coming out at all

@Costas Athan:
The damage model is really basic, so things like roll cages aren't modelled at properly - everything just folds as if it's made of warm tin. I'm sure that'll all be looked at before LFS goes gold.
Quote from Costas Athan :... And something about damage model. After the roll over occurred, the roll bar that should protect drivers head appears to be completely damaged and the driver's head out of the cockpit! Graphics should be improved at that point. Structures that are intended to protect drivers should not get smashed easily.

While I agree with what you are saying, the object is to keep all four wheels on the road. This is not an issue when you are not driving like a banana. (I have not watched your replays.)
#5 - J@tko
Contact Michael Booth. He's an expert in the field of rolling Single-Seaters.
Quote from j@tko :contact michael booth. He's an expert in the field of rolling single-seaters.

:da
Regarding the 2 wheel driving, if downforce was always applied straight down, rather than pointing towards the bottom of the car, then it would be much easier to drive on 2 wheels than it should be. I can't remember what Scawen said about how he fixed the high nose aero bug, as this was a problem with the drag and lift vectors.
Quote from The Very End :Remember that most setups used in LFS is by far very, very inrealistic. The way some people use the pressure in the tires, aswell as the spring settings, will make it a fairly resonable thing to happend.

However, there are some downthings with the current tire physic engine, but that is getting an upgrade within the year.

Well that's the first thing that should change!!! LFS is a simulator and that means only things that are adjustable must be able to change in a setup and also the values that can take must be within a realistic range.

For example it is wrong to be able to adjust the suspension of a car when in real life the same suspension it's unadjustable and is case of an adjustable suspension is wrong to be able to make a setting that is not possible in real world.

Unrealistic setups are a very important issue for me when we are talking about simulation and a serious inconvenience.

Quote from Dajmin :Careful with your quotes. We don't know if and when the new update is coming out at all

@Costas Athan:
The damage model is really basic, so things like roll cages aren't modelled at properly - everything just folds as if it's made of warm tin. I'm sure that'll all be looked at before LFS goes gold.

It would be a nice improvement.

Quote from bandaid :While I agree with what you are saying, the object is to keep all four wheels on the road. This is not an issue when you are not driving like a banana. (I have not watched your replays.)

Well I don't think it is easy to make a one seater fly... And surely it shouldn't happen in my case. Watch the replay and make your judgment.
Now in lfs many fast setups are so soft, it would make a formula cars suitable for public road use. The cars lean much more over in corners then irl, this is very noticable when viewing the load on the tires; way too big weight transfers/camber changes in corners due to very soft suspension settings. Also making it rewarding to drive ultra-high tire pressure and huge negative camber settings. Cause of this is, is the well known defects in the tire-moddeling of lfs.

So maybe wait for the next tire-physics update, if tires behave a lot more realistic it most likely more rewarding to have a as low-as-possible-ride height and much stiffer suspension-settings and also to drive with a lot less camber and have realistic tyre-pressure levels. (i hope, i wish.. i am dreaming off... )
Quote from Costas Athan :
Well I don't think it is easy to make a one seater fly... And surely it shouldn't happen in my case. Watch the replay and make your judgment.

Irl singe seaters are bouncing over the curbs, inside wheels driving full over inside. In lfs this would mean total loss of grip.

Single seaters do not fly often, but i remember a picture of Jos Verstappen in a a1gp car going over a hill resulting in all four wheels in the air Doing just a regular lap.

http://www.verstappen.nl/column/12.html


However you are really driving up a very steep curb, which does have an effect you might rol over espacially if you don' t counter steer like you did.

The second mpr, the two wheel driving on lap 5 is indeed a bug, i agree.
Quote from Bluebird B B :Irl singe seaters are bouncing over the curbs, inside wheels driving full over inside. In lfs this would mean total loss of grip.

Single seaters do not fly often, but i remember a picture of Jos Verstappen in a a1gp car going over a hill resulting in all four wheels in the air Doing just a regular lap.

http://www.verstappen.nl/column/12.html


However you are really driving up a very steep curb, which does have an effect you might rol over espacially if you don' t counter steer like you did.

The second mpr, the two wheel driving on lap 5 is indeed a bug, i agree.

Here is another one just some minutes ago. Two rollovers in two days...

Lap 5 (which is the final lap), first corner.

Look the replay from a camera placed outside the car in ultra slow motion. The right wheels don't have any contact with the grass. I didn't drive the car out of the limits of the kerb.

The setup is "RACE_blackwood" which is included in the game, with a modified final drive ratio.

I don't think that this is a typical behavior of a race one seater car.

It flips instantly without any prior warning. In the first corner I use the inside kerb from time to time. But most of the times it doesn't even unstabilize the car. If that kerb is capable of rolling over the FBM it should every time make the pass over it extremely difficult, but that's not the way it happens...

The photos you are referring to show the cars just a few centimeters above the tarmac. In my replays we are talking about a behavior which is too far away from these examples! And there are many examples with F1 cars driving over kerbs. Some of them are steep too. I haven't ever seen a similar Formula 1 car reaction!

Some examples:
  1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NxzZ-WlYyE
  2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtoUZxspGEA (look at 0:53")
Attached files
rollover again.rar - 568.6 KB - 70 views
We can only hope for more realistic setups and new physics that is real good!
Quote from libben :We can only hope for more realistic setups and new physics that is real good!

Physics and car settings should be the first priority and they should constantly be improved in each new release. I'm a new LFS driver so I can't comment on how physics have changed during LFS history. But I'm sure developers trying their best. I'm just mentioning some points that I think make the game more unrealistic and "ruin" driving experience and simulation filling.

Of course the fact that LFS has one or two weak points doesn't mean that is not an excellent simulation game! It is and I strongly believe it will get better!
Have you even noticed the shape of the kurb in the last corner, its not like usual kurbs its very pointy and high and youre not supposed to drive over it. Its not the game's fault its your fault that youre rolling over
I think the problem you are having is you don't know what all the settings do and you're too lazy to figure them out. In addition, you find yourself well off the pace, so you throw up your hands and whine about how all the setup options are unrealistic. If you can't make adjustments, no one else should be able to either!
Quote from säkkinaama :Have you even noticed the shape of the kurb in the last corner, its not like usual kurbs its very pointy and high and youre not supposed to drive over it. Its not the game's fault its your fault that youre rolling over

Yes, I've seen it. But I didn't drive over it. Watch the replay in ultra slow motion (press F2 sometimes) and use different camera angles. I drove on it, not over it. The wheels don't touch the grass. Press F9 to confirm it. There isn't any dirt on any of the wheels. If I had stepped on the grass and then again on the kerb I would expect an unpleasant reaction, but again not the certain one.

Maybe using that kerb isn't a good tactic. But the speed in the apex isn't above 100 km/h. The car shouldn't flip so easily! I insist on that.

I'm watching Formula 1 many years. I have watched tones of Open Wheelers videos on Youtube, but I honestly don't remember anything like this. If someone has a proof for that kind of behavior in real world open wheelers' races I would like to see it.
I can't watch the replay here, but I think what sakkinaama meant (sorry I've no idea where the umlauts are) was that the kerb itself is shaped strangely. It has a peak, which means it's possible the front wing clipped that peak hard enough to bounce the car.
Quote from Forbin :I think the problem you are having is you don't know what all the settings do and you're too lazy to figure them out. In addition, you find yourself well off the pace, so you throw up your hands and whine about how all the setup options are unrealistic. If you can't make adjustments, no one else should be able to either!

Who else wants to see a discussion between the OP and Intrepid now?
Quote from Forbin :I think the problem you are having is you don't know what all the settings do and you're too lazy to figure them out. In addition, you find yourself well off the pace, so you throw up your hands and whine about how all the setup options are unrealistic. If you can't make adjustments, no one else should be able to either!

You misunderstood... I didn't say that all settings are unrealistic. And I don't claim I'm an expert. Unrealistic setups have been mentioned in other threads too. As I already mentioned (read above) I count as unrealistic e.g. that the XFG gearbox can be adjusted. When you buy a road car you can't adjust the gearbox. It is as it is...

As of what settings do, I have already read the LFS manual:and I watch motorsports for years so I have at least a basic understanding of racing setups and techniques. Again, I don't claim I'm an expert.

In addition I don't blame unrealistic settings for my times. (In reality I'm not unhappy with my times. I have done 1:14:99 with FBM@BL1 and I think that with more practice I can improve. The assumption that I find myself off pace is wrong.) And even if the fact is that setups are totally unrealistic there are unrealistic for everyone, not only for me. So if you think my times are well off pace it certainly hasn't anything to do with realistic or unrealistic setups....
Quote from Dajmin :I can't watch the replay here, but I think what sakkinaama meant (sorry I've no idea where the umlauts are) was that the kerb itself is shaped strangely. It has a peak, which means it's possible the front wing clipped that peak hard enough to bounce the car.

Bounce? Of course I would expect a bounce. But the car ended with the wheels facing the sky.

I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion after you watch the 3 replays.
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(carey) DELETED by carey
Quote from carey :I’ve rolled the FBM at the first turn around Blackwood without touching anything. Also the exit of the chicane seems to be another place where you can roll depending on how you take it. The most annoying thing’s that during two wheel moments counter steering seems to do very little, which leads to the conclusion, that something’s wrong with the physics (although this is an unpopular view).

Of course there is room for physics improvement. If physics were perfect developers wouldn't introduce a new tire model (I mention it because it's really new) and wouldn't make any updates to LFS physics model. I think the view is unpopular among people who love the game and thought that I started this thread in order to blame LFS for physics inaccuracy. But I really don't think that the game is bad. The fact is that it is really great and I just tried to mention a weak point....

I have a replay with a seriously damaged rear suspension. In order to go straight I had to steer the wheel many degrees left. And I was able to do 1:22. (And you have to notice that after the suspension got damaged I didn't push the car. I could do even better times.) I don't think there is a chance to drive a car with such a damaged suspension so fast... Maybe I could start a new topic for it because it's unrelated with this one. I also can mention that in some high speed crashes it happens to get little damage, less than lower speed ones. (But that happens rarely and I don't remember under what circumstances happened).

In conclusion I have the feeling that in most cases physics are excellent. There are some certain points though which have obviously room for improvement.
Yes, LFS has some physics flaws, as do all games. One of LFS' problems relates to how the contact patch is seemingly just a single point and when the tire contacts a sharply angled surface, the model doesn't handle it well when there should be two simultaneous contact points and a huge amount of energy is slammed into the tire. This can cause unusual behaviour.

But, in your case, what you have is a situation where it sounds like you are hitting a very sharp and tall curb with such speed and force that the car rolls over. That may or may not be a physics problem. It might simply be your driving or it might simply be exactly what would happen in the real world.

Look at it this way, if you hit that curb with that kind of force with a real car, you are going to break the suspension so your race is over. My suggestion is, don't do that. It isn't faster, that curb is much too sharp to even clip, and you know it makes you wreck.

Do some searching and you will find all the different physics bugs discussed in great detail. You aren't bringing up anything new here.
Quote from Forbin :I think the problem you are having is you don't know what all the settings do and you're too lazy to figure them out. In addition, you find yourself well off the pace, so you throw up your hands and whine about how all the setup options are unrealistic. If you can't make adjustments, no one else should be able to either!

What the hell are you talking about? The guy raises a fair point; a Formula BMW car shouldn't behave like that when going over curbs. Setup options have little to do with this discussion, IMO. And LFS setup options should be drastically reduced on most (if not all) cars in LFS, but that's beside the point here.
Quote from Hallen :Yes, LFS has some physics flaws, as do all games. One of LFS' problems relates to how the contact patch is seemingly just a single point and when the tire contacts a sharply angled surface, the model doesn't handle it well when there should be two simultaneous contact points and a huge amount of energy is slammed into the tire. This can cause unusual behaviour.

But, in your case, what you have is a situation where it sounds like you are hitting a very sharp and tall curb with such speed and force that the car rolls over. That may or may not be a physics problem. It might simply be your driving or it might simply be exactly what would happen in the real world.

Look at it this way, if you hit that curb with that kind of force with a real car, you are going to break the suspension so your race is over. My suggestion is, don't do that. It isn't faster, that curb is much too sharp to even clip, and you know it makes you wreck.

Do some searching and you will find all the different physics bugs discussed in great detail. You aren't bringing up anything new here.

I did a search for rollover + FBM (I also tried other keywords) but I don't think that it brought up any related threads. If I missed a similar topic I'm sorry.

Have a look at the replays yourself. Maybe the curb is sharp and tall but after all it isn't so sharp and tall and in addition the speed is relatively slow.

If you search youtube you can find many videos with open wheelers driving over curbs and bumps with speeds higher than 200 kph. Monte Carlo road circuit tarmac has many bumps but the tires are continuously in contact with the road.

If the same curb was in another turn where speeds were higher (e.g. 150 km/h or more) what should happen? Should the car fly out of the track? My opinion is that the car overreacts... And is not only that. Is it possible to drive a Formula BMW on two wheels? In LFS that happened for one or two seconds to me. I counter steered to bring the car back on the road.
Restricted (more realistic) setups were also coming if i remember correctly..

Realism Issue - FBM rollover and 2 wheels driving!
(57 posts, started )
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