Quote from Intrepid :

So are you saying all the drivers are giving up when they reduce the revs on their engine near the end of the race? Every driver does this!

I think every driver on the grid has retired even when their car was 'capable' of finishing. Hamilton was just being smart and thinking ahead.

Yeah exactly because the rules allow them to, which is bad.

Quote from Intrepid :

If Lewis wants to fight for the win in hungary he would be better off with a new gearbox and fresher engine. Surely a real racer is the one who goes for the win at all costs. In this case the cost was retiring from a GP he had no chance of even unlapping himself. That is a TINY cost!

Well if the stupid engine rules were not in place, this scenario would never happen, why would Hamilton have any reason to save an engine and gearbox if the team were allowed to build a new one for the next race?

Several drivers have shown us that no matter how far back they are, good finishes can be had, examples being John Watson in Detroit in '82 or Keke Rosberg at Zolder in '84 (well, almost). I would bet that Hamilton placed in the same position would want to give up, partly because of the rules which allow him an easy way out and make it impossible to overtake.

You also have to admire the likes of Gilles Villeneuve, trying desperately to get back into the pits to stay in the race with a disintegrating rear tyre at Zandvoort in '79. It would be a fairly safe bet that most modern F1 drivers including Hamilton would probrably just park it as soon as they went off the road with a flat, but Villeneuve with his determination that could burn through walls got back on the road and carried on until his car could move no more because the rear suspension had collapsed.

Quote from Intrepid :

I don't like rules as much as the next guy, but if you want to achieve the best results possible you have to play them.

That dosen't change the fact that some of the rules in place in F1 are crapola, drivers should be rewarded for not giving up, not the other way round!

T'is the same problem with Q3 cars qualifying on race fuel, qualifying should be a test of who is the fastest, race stratergy should not influence it at all. The cars should be fueled to the minimum and the drivers and cars should be driving at the limit.

The problem with the rules at the moment is that they encourage holding back and giving up, there is no reward for insane determination in the face of unlikely odds, looking back I think you'll find most successful racing drivers (if not most successful people), have immense determination, the current set of rules has perhaps lead to a generation of F1 drivers who lack this trait which they really should have.

Quote from 5haz :

......

I am not sure if we agree or not!

It's the inadequate rules I blame. Hamilton was forced into that situation. To call it 'giving up' really isn't true. He was trading a lost race for a better chance at another one. I would say 90% of the grid would have at least suggested the exact same thing.

90% being all except team McLaren, who told him to carry on, not drive around slowly getting in the way with no interest in driving quickly.

The track in Hungary is not fast track , and the weather will be more than 30 celzius in sunday. In this track the technique of the driwers will made the biggest part of the succes.
In this race the temperature of the track will hot , . The last two race is shown us that the RED Bull is wery good in the cold time on cold track , and he is wery good in tyresworming on the race in the same time eweribody else has a problem with cold tyres.
On track in the Hungary this will change , and maybe the Brown will strike back , but Meclaren and Reno will be wery close , and maybe Ferrari make new reborn in this track.

Reno?

Quote from Vinnylegends :

Reno?

Renault I think... :P

...

This argument is pretty hilarious. The phrase "giving up" has a bad connotation to it HOWEVER, it really is pretty much calling it a day. But why is that exactly a bad thing

Should an overly determined driver always be a better driver? I certainly dont think so. Sure a good driver as a well motivated driver. But if your race is absolutely FUBAR then i see absolutely no reason why anyone should go on an all out kamikaze run trying desperately to catch some places.

Racing is trauma to the car. Something most people forget. Driving absolutely as fast as possible, breaking as late as possible, jerking the car back and forth around a very intense and technically challenging track.

I can understand the contempt if Hamilton was second and he just said "aww screw it, let's park it." I can understand the contempt if Hamilton wanted to park it while in 7th place. But Hamilton wanted to park it after his race was FUBAR. Save the engine, save the gearbox and remove the possibility that a puncture or a crash can ruin the car. Why the hell is that so bad?

Apparantly, every F1 driver should drive like they are fighting for the lead? I've seen backmarkers is ALL motorsport who parks it when their race wasn't going anywhere. I've seen it in NASCAR, WTCC, V8 and Indy. But, oh nooooo.....god forbids that F1 has any drivers who wants to think ahead and possibly have the best car into the next round. :rolleyes:

Besides, the Hamilton's only shot at getting even close to a points finish was a massive pile up in F1...I'll let that speak for itself.

Quote from tristancliffe :

90% being all except team McLaren, who told him to carry on, not drive around slowly getting in the way with no interest in driving quickly.

Maybe you saw more than me (not sarcastic, I wasn't watching intently). But I didn't see Hamilton do any antics or "bored driving" which i HAVE seen people do before. The fact that he wanted to park it is absolutely no reason to bash him (read above post). HOWEVER, if he was making an arse of himself and throwing a tantrum cause the team told him to stay on the track. Then there's cause for the contempt.

I didn't see it. I only saw someone who wasn't interested...so what? A FUBAR race will do that to you It's true in any other top category motorsports or motorsports in general and F1 is no exception

Yeah, weather is hot here, 35°C average. Hungaroring is not a really fast track, rather technical and slippery. Few years ago I was sitting on 'Gold 4' which is at the end of the main straight. Shifting back from 300km/h... Those sounds were amazing

Is Wenault! Wong spelling make me wery wery angwy!

I would say something constructive to stop this from being purely spam [EDIT: oh crap, oops], but I really don't want to get involved this silly argument. Whilst I'd prefer it if drivers didn't 'give up', in the current situation it is very sensible for any driver to do what Lewis did, and I'm sure any driver would! Why this is a reason for Hamilton-bashing I don't know, because he did what a good driver should do in that situation! As I said, it is annoying, but it isn't like Lewis is the only one who would do that.

Hell, even Gilles Villeneuve would probably have tried to save his car for the next race!

Quote from lizardfolk :

Apparantly, every F1 driver should drive like they are fighting for the lead? I've seen backmarkers is ALL motorsport who parks it when their race wasn't going anywhere. I've seen it in NASCAR, WTCC, V8 and Indy. But, oh nooooo.....god forbids that F1 has any drivers who wants to think ahead and possibly have the best car into the next round. :rolleyes:

Actually, the way I see it, in WTCC, BTCC, V8, GP2 and every bike racing series I can think of people tend to fight over 10th place just as hard, or even harder, than the folks at the top. Really, I've never seen a driver give up without the actual need to do so unless it was a WTCC race where they wanted to repair the car before the second race.
I don't think though that arrogance is a trait only reserved to Hamilton. In F1 you just don't see people going for victory at all costs anymore. You don't get people risking to lose 8 points so they can get a shot at getting 10.
Neither do you see drivers actually getting agitated about racing. Back in the 80s, after a situation similar to Kubica's and Vettel's crash in Australia this season, the drivers would've shouted at each other trying to strangle the other guy. These days you hear them declare that actually the incident was no ones fault that that everybody should learn from the experience.
Vettel may be a great driver, but he's the worst of the faceless bunch.

Vain

Well then why do the drivers outside the top 5 even bother starting the bloody race? After all they have a diminished chance of winning, so why don't they just skip the race in order to save their engines and gearboxes for when they have a better chance?

Thats the problem with the engine rules and this attitude that a lot of people seem to have, the whole point of a race is to drive your car as fast as possible in an attempt to finish the race length before other competitors, if you are holding back because you are well down the grid then you are not racing and might as well have never showed up!

In times past we saw spectacular fight backs from way down the grid, drivers like Fangio, Rosberg, Mansell, Senna and Watson (and others), and that was part of what made F1 racing spectacular. This was partly because the top teams could afford to have their engines and gearboxes rebuilt or replaced between races, drivers didn't have to worry about preserving engines when they had nothing to lose.

Now because of the engine rules nobody can be bothered to actually race unless they have a top 5 position virtually handed to them on a plate, that isn't what motor racing is all about.

Even if your car is damaged you should still drive it to its maximum available potential, a race finish is better than a retirement, even if you don't pick up points.

Quote from lizardfolk :

Apparantly, every F1 driver should drive like they are fighting for the lead? I've seen backmarkers is ALL motorsport who parks it when their race wasn't going anywhere. I've seen it in NASCAR, WTCC, V8 and Indy. But, oh nooooo.....god forbids that F1 has any drivers who wants to think ahead and possibly have the best car into the next round.

Yes every F1 driver should drive like they are fighting for the lead, because essentialy they are all fighting for the lead, if you go into a race not wanting to win, even if there is little chance of it, then you should question why you even bother racing.

I have the same attitude for all racing series, you shouldn't give up no matter what you drive. And Hamilton's car was not completely FUBAR, I could understand if it was leaking oil and was being black flagged, but it wasn't.

You don't get respect for giving up or holding back, but you do get respect for trying your hardest.

And more on topic, looks like its going to be hot, which going by past performance will favour the Brawns and perhaps will result in Vettel or Webber destroying their tyres and finishing poorly or falling off the road while the Brawns slip easily off into the distance. However we have yet to see Red Bull and Brawn's updates working in hot conditions, so its Hard to judge wether Red Bull have closed the gap.

Quote from Vain :

Actually, the way I see it, in WTCC, BTCC, V8, GP2 and every bike racing series I can think of people tend to fight over 10th place just as hard, or even harder, than the folks at the top. Really, I've never seen a driver give up without the actual need to do so unless it was a WTCC race where they wanted to repair the car before the second race.

But see? that's pretty midfield. I'm not talking about midfield. I'm talking about backmarkers or people who have completely FUBARed their race. Have you ever wondered why there are sometimes random retirements at the back end of the field? I remember a V8 race with 4 retirements in 1 lap (all last of course) without so much as an accident or any mention of engine problems.

Quote from 5haz :

Well then why do the drivers outside the top 5 even bother starting the bloody race? After all they have a diminished chance of winning, so why don't they just skip the race in order to save their engines and gearboxes for when they have a better chance?

Indeed why dont they?

Quote from 5haz :

Thats the problem with the engine rules and this attitude that a lot of people seem to have, the whole point of a race is to drive your car as fast as possible in an attempt to finish the race length before other competitors, if you are holding back because you are well down the grid then you are not racing and might as well have never showed up!

F1 doesnt remove points for DNFs and only the top 6 get points. Hamilton had a pretty good car, it showed in pre-race. So...he race and car was basically ruined but the engine and gearbox wasn't. The more he stays on the track the more there's the potential to ruin the car furthur.

If he finished last 1 lap down or finished 7th it really doesn't make a difference does it? I mean, fight and put strain on your engine and end up 7th....OR retire, save the enging and come to the next round with a very good car that might give him the podium if not the win.....

Sensible...simple...

Quote from 5haz :

In times past we saw spectacular fight backs from way down the grid, drivers like Fangio, Rosberg, Mansell, Senna and Watson (and others), and that was part of what made F1 racing spectacular. This was partly because the top teams could afford to have their engines and gearboxes rebuilt or replaced between races, drivers didn't have to worry about preserving engines when they had nothing to lose.

That was then, this is now.

Quote from 5haz :

Now because of the engine rules nobody can be bothered to actually race unless they have a top 5 position virtually handed to them on a plate, that isn't what motor racing is all about.

That is a matter or opinion but the fact is...the rule is in place and this is how F1 is to operate...Of course I'm not saying I like this. I always get irritated when guys show up in NASCAR and just drive 2 laps and retire. But unfortunately that's just how some people operate and the current situation states that this action may even be beneficial. You cant deny that.

Quote from 5haz :

Yes every F1 driver should drive like they are fighting for the lead, because essentialy they are all fighting for the lead, if you go into a race not wanting to win, even if there is little chance of it, then you should question why you even bother racing.

There's a difference between not wanting to win and being realistic. I remember Kimi had said that Ferrarri doesnt have a chance at a win and a podium is realistic. Do you consider this defeatism? What do you tell Toro Rosso or Force India? Should everyone be given the "motivational" speech that maybe JUST MAYBE if you believe in yourself then you might overcome Brawn and Red Bull and get a win?

No...each team fights to better for it's own circumstance. It is NEVER to fight for a win or sometimes even fighting the guy in front of you. It's always to better the circumstance anyway possible. If that means to retire to save the engines? Then so be it. It's boring for the spectators to see. But it is the sensable thing to do.

Quote from 5haz :

You don't get respect for giving up or holding back, but you do get respect for trying your hardest.

No one is saying he deserves respect for wanting to call it a day. But all we are saying is that it isn't necessarily a reason to bash.

In part you can blame these rules, but really the driver shouldn't be asking his team to park it, that imo means things are not going your way so why bother racing?

For example say this was hamiltons first race, and he was out there to try prove himself in F1 put in the same situation i can garentee he would be too scared to even question why he should be still racing.

Quote from Mustafur :

In part you can blame these rules, but really the driver shouldn't be asking his team to park it, that imo means things are not going your way so why bother racing?

For example say this was hamiltons first race, and he was out there to try prove himself in F1 put in the same situation i can garentee he would be too scared to even question why he should be still racing.

But see, that's a whole different set of circumstances. You cant take one absolute ideal and just arbitrarily apply it to every situation.

I dont like the drive and park attitude that many people have in all categories of motorsports and thankfully it's still a minority. HOWEVER, you cannot deny that in some, even many, circumstance it is the better and sensible course of action.

Drivers operate on an overall basis now and since there's really no difference between a retirement and a 7th place. Why ruin the next race's potential at a podium or win?

Drivers should'nt have to worry about ruining their cars, (at least if they are in larger budget teams), Colin Chapman said that the ideal racing car falls apart as it crosses the finish line, and I think he was right, the current rules have produced cars that are not racing cars, they are more like endurance racers, which is not F1.

There is nothing wrong with being realistic, but knowing you wont win or pick up points is no reason to retire, the only time you should reire from a race is when you know that realistically that your car cannot possibly move any further safely. I know thats not the best course to take under the current rules but the current rules are bollocks.

And why does everybody just accept these rules? "Its the rules so thats how it should be done", I'm glad not everybody on the planet has this laissez-faire (pardon moi francais) attitude because if we did we'd still be living as cavemen. The engine rules should be abolished so that teams can rebuild or replace engines or gearboxes whenever they like, then drivers will have no excuse to get the maximum possible out of the car from start to finish.

Drivers should not have to think about the next race when racing in the current one, they should be racing for the race they're in right now or they might as well not race in it at all.

F1 has become an event where it often pays more to not try hard, how is that a competetive sport?

How can you expect someone to put out 100% all of the time? No human can possible put out 100% all the time..

Quote from lizardfolk :

But see, that's a whole different set of circumstances. You cant take one absolute ideal and just arbitrarily apply it to every situation.

I dont like the drive and park attitude that many people have in all categories of motorsports and thankfully it's still a minority. HOWEVER, you cannot deny that in some, even many, circumstance it is the better and sensible course of action.

Drivers operate on an overall basis now and since there's really no difference between a retirement and a 7th place. Why ruin the next race's potential at a podium or win?

Well the teams still get money for postions up till 10th position but that is not the point.

If your payed to race thats what you should be doing, the Technical department gets payed to do there job so let them do theres.

Sponsership is also another reason they should still be out there, i mean they get big bucks for brands to stick there name on there car im sure they would like the car out there for the maximum amount of time.

Quote from BlueFlame :

How can you expect someone to put out 100% all of the time? No human can possible put out 100% all the time..

Trying your best is not hard.

Quote from 5haz :

You don't get respect for giving up or holding back, but you do get respect for trying your hardest

Explain to me how Hamilton can try his 'hardest' if he now has to limit his engine revs because of the mileage, and be careful with the gearbox at hungary? Surely this weekend, because of the actions of McLaren he will have to hold back!

Hungary represents the best chance McLaren have got all year of a good result. McLaren, IMO, were being a tad naive in believing that the Nurburgring was salvageable. The only explanation I can think of for him staying out was an obligation to Mercedes at their home Grand Prix. It really may be that simple.

Quote from Intrepid :

Explain to me how Hamilton can try his 'hardest' if he now has to limit his engine revs because of the mileage, and be careful with the gearbox at hungary? Surely this weekend, because of the actions of McLaren he will have to hold back!

Hungary represents the best chance McLaren have got all year of a good result. McLaren, IMO, were being a tad naive in believing that the Nurburgring was salvageable. The only explanation I can think of for him staying out was an obligation to Mercedes at their home Grand Prix. It really may be that simple.

Al, I agree with you, I actually do.

Quote from Intrepid :

Explain to me how Hamilton can try his 'hardest' if he now has to limit his engine revs because of the mileage, and be careful with the gearbox at hungary? Surely this weekend, because of the actions of McLaren he will have to hold back!

Hungary represents the best chance McLaren have got all year of a good result. McLaren, IMO, were being a tad naive in believing that the Nurburgring was salvageable. The only explanation I can think of for him staying out was an obligation to Mercedes at their home Grand Prix. It really may be that simple.

Explain to me how wanting to park it is trying your hardest?

Limiting engine revs due to the rules doesn't mean hes not trying hes hardest. specificly asking to park it means he is.

Quote from Intrepid :

Explain to me how Hamilton can try his 'hardest' if he now has to limit his engine revs because of the mileage, and be careful with the gearbox at hungary? Surely this weekend, because of the actions of McLaren he will have to hold back!

Hungary represents the best chance McLaren have got all year of a good result. McLaren, IMO, were being a tad naive in believing that the Nurburgring was salvageable. The only explanation I can think of for him staying out was an obligation to Mercedes at their home Grand Prix. It really may be that simple.

What Hamilton did was valid under the current rules, but the rules, and what Hamilton did are both against the spirit of what sprint racing should be all about, if the rules werent so crap then Hamilton would have no excuse not to try his hardest.

People seem to think you must have a points finish or there is no point, at least making the flag is a good enough reward in itself.

Quote from BlueFlame :

How can you expect someone to put out 100% all of the time? No human can possible put out 100% all the time..

But they should be able to put out 100% of what they have to give, which may not be 100% all the time.

Quote from 5haz :

"Its the rules so thats how it should be done", I'm glad not everybody on the planet has this laissez-faire (pardon moi francais) attitude because if we did we'd still be living as cavemen. The engine rules should be abolished so that teams can rebuild or replace engines or gearboxes whenever they like, then drivers will have no excuse to get the maximum possible out of the car from start to finish.

So what do you want me to do...? Just sit there and complain? I dont like the current rules and I'm not defending them. I'm merely saying that with these rules this course of action is the most sensible. like it or not that's the fact

I dont run F1, and if I had a chance to influence F1 I would do everything in my power to change it. But I dont, and just constantly complaining about it is not going to chance it either.

But the rules isn't up for debate. Hamilton is. Let me repeat: Hamilton wanted to do the sensible thing under the current rules by wanting to park the car and save the engine and for that he doesn't deserve bashing.

If he was "bored driving" or performing antics to throw a tantrum, then he deserve bashing. But he didn't (as far as i saw)

It's really quite simple idk why I have to point this out.

Quote from 5haz :

What Hamilton did was valid under the current rules, but the rules, and what Hamilton did are both against the spirit of what sprint racing should be all about, if the rules werent so crap then Hamilton would have no excuse not to try his hardest.

If if if if if....but it's not. Read my first response....

Just because the rules are laid a certain way dosen't mean you have to think that way too, the current rules mean that the F1 field has become a bunch who can take the easy way out and give up easily, the rules may encourage that but that can't stop me from thinking that its not right.

ok i may sound like all im doing right now is prasing Webber, but look at Australia this year.

after the first corner collison he continued on driving and even though with a damaged car he ended up finishing the race, i mean is it as simple as that?