She spins both ways. I just focus on the standing foot to make her spin the way I want it.

Quote from Shotglass :

and im trying to point out to you that since you lack any education in any relevant field to the subject you should do the only smart thing there is and wait things out while the topic is still under discussion from people who do know the math instead of flapping your mouth in support for one side when in fact you dont understand either side

also for what its worth a congressional hearing is not a scientific publication

So at first we had a worldwide scientific consensus. Now we have a topic still under discussion.

I say we're making some sort of progress. I hope the policymakers have not taken sides yet and will 'wait things out' as it is the smart thing to do from dumb people.

Quote from GreyBull [CHA] :

I'm pretty sure zeug is referring to the Vettel incident at the Hungaroring.

Already got that. I was trying to be I-fake-I-don't-know-what-you're-talking-about funny. Wrong smilie probably.

Quote :

CoRe showing Red Bull how it's done?

Meaning we didn't run into each other ? Sure.

Sorry to Cattell. With those tire temps I definately didn't have the grip to make it stick on your inside. It's my job to know the level of grip I have before commiting to a line and I failed at it. I felt really bad seeing you go off. I hope I'll have the chance to make it up to you in any future race.

About the SC I took a speed I thought was reasonable. If it helped my team mate then so be it. When it comes to SC there will always be some who lose and some who gain no matter how clear the rule is.

What should I do? Check out the map and make sure I match Corey's pace to be certain this SC is "fair" and he gets his rightful 3rd? Not gonna happen. I'd watch replays of all the SCs there has been in this series and I'd find plenty of cases where someone gains or loses because of unmatched paces getting to the SC.

Quote from JCTK :

I believes the intention of the rule is to catch teams that swap their positions when they're leading and second. (Just my personal opinion)

But they have to leave the rules worded that way, to ensure they can catch the team when it happens. They can't really just go and describe under whatever circumstances would you be guilty of team orders in the rules, as the teams will simply avoid those circumstances when they're manipulating the results.

Therefore, the rule just simply state that any team orders that interfere the race results is prohibited. But there are always team orders, surely telling a driver to pit is a team order that may interfere with the race results? Hence that's where my opinion arose for my first paragraph.

And I guess we shall see from the WMC whether such a rule is really unworkable, or what further penalties, if any, would be handed down to Ferrari.

I see that the rule could just mean : Look, we know it's stupid but just don't make the sport look bad cause we then have the power to punish you.

You are then simply forcing the teams to have coded words and acting skills on the radio and on the track. All of this not to "shock" who? The fans?

If a fan is unable to say : Meh. This sucked but this is F1 and I understand why a team would do that then that someone needs to move on and watch something else. Lots of people here are saying we know there are team orders and they will happen but we would prefer to see some masquerade coming along with it. We wanna pretend there aren't any team orders cause it makes the sport look bad. To me it's just silly.

Quote from richo :

team orders exist and everyone know it , to me what makes this case different is they did not try to hide it and its that sort of arrogance that gets up peoples noses.

Ferrari have treated the fans with contempt and they should be punished for that.

It makes me wonder what planet Ferrari are from to think the punters and officials would buy that load of shit. Yes its probably a dumb rule to begin with but seriously there has to be a better way than trying to dupe people.

To me this is duping people :

Pitwall : The bananas are red. I repeat. The bananas. Are. Red.

Then Massa misses braking point, runs wide, loses place.

No?

The message right after the pass shouldn't have been : "Good lad, now stick with him, sorry."

It should have been : "WTF are you doing ??!! You're supposed to fake a mistake or some shit so that the people who don't fully understand the sport don't feel sorry for you and/or robbed of a fight."

Not sure if it's arrogance or just plain dumb management not to have something pre-planned for that situation. Alonso's missing a gear comment on the parade lap was just hilarious. He surely didn't know how poor the acting had been on the other side.

Sooooo

Ferrari's blown diff working good right away.

McLaren's not so much. It doesn't look like a thing that you can fix up without test days. Either you get it good right away or you're kinda stuck with the thing never working ok with the rest of your package.

The lead is not big enough to just rack up 4th-5th places and surf to the end.

They need to figure out what's wrong with it...quick. If not they better hope Red Bull & Ferrari crash each other very often.

Quote from CSF :

It's not the same thing though really. While it might be an 'order' it wasn't for a deserved win for Heikki. What you fail to mention is Heikki sitting back for lap after lap and not taking on Massa (who had failing rear brakes as we and McLaren heard over the radio) so what should McLaren do?

As history stands Hamilton got past Heikki, past Massa within a few laps, got Piquet and won the race, one of the best ends to a race we have had in years and went on to win the title. Heikki? Well he didn't pass Massa, and was so slow even Heidfeld slotted in front. Did McLaren make the right call, you bet they did.


If Alonso wins the title because he was let through in the way he did today... well it's just silly.

Agree. But the surrounding race situation/context doesn't have be considered at all when you're trying to apply that kind of sporting regulation.

Note that I never said that Ferrari was right. I hated to see it and that's not what I want F1 to be. I'm just being logic and I think fair in the way I see things.

Recent one would be Turkey 2010

LH : If I back off, Jenson gonna pass me or not?

Pitwall: No Lewis.. No.

Why would a driver inquire to his team about that if there's no team orders allowed? The fact that Jenson actually made a move not long after shouldn't change how you view this.

I also remember Kovalainen letting Lewis through on at least two occasions either simulating a driving mistake(France?) or just letting him through (Germany 2008 LOL same corner as today). No big deal was made of that. This applies to multiple teams...no one here remembers seeing stuff and thinking "yeah right no team orders" during a gp ??? Come on.

Ferrari just did it without any tricks and everyone could see it. I respect that more than what the others did. 100 000$ will be enough to make sure they do it the right way next time. Hide it so the most logical sport on earth sport doesn't look bad to the emotional mass.

Here at 1:55 for the 2008 German "move"

http://www.videohighlights.net ... any-hockenheim-formula-1/

Last edited by PhilS13, Sun 25 Jul 2010, 17:40.

McLaren does it. It's all fine.

Ferrari does it. It's not all fine.

Freakin fanboys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbO9atd_jwg

Is this why McLaren said "Great first corner" by radio to Lewis after the race?

Quote from BreadC :

not really.

brand new super softs on low fuel vs worn mediums on low fuel.

was inevitable

Smartest comment about that here. I was very impressed by his midrace pace.

Everyone seems to forget his spankin new tyres.

Schumi : "Our point of view is that as the safety car had passed the pits without having the cars lined up behind it, there should not have been a red light. There was a green light for a moment and then suddenly it went red again. We believe that this was not correct."

His point is valid. IIRC the cars flying by were not lined up behind the SC while he was at the red light.
If he's able to get out of the pits at that time he's in pretty good shape. A much better shape than 3rd behind Kobayashi.

Quote from tinvek :

all they need to do is pass a rule thaat if the safety car comes out, the running order is frozen at the end of the previous lap and then shuffle the cars whilst they're behind the safety car to make sure everyone is in the right place.

Agree 100% Even better. They have GPS. Field frozen as it is at the time they decide SC needs to go.

Quote from JCTK :

50ish seconds gap? did you watched the same race as everyone else did?

Vettel "passed" the safety car too.

it is ok to pass the safety car as long as it is before that safety car line which was painted on the track. Lewis thought twice about that but by the time he tried out accelerate the safety car it was too late.
1). If Lewis didn't slam on the brakes he'd be ok.
2). F1 drivers can't see out the side of the car thanks to the HANS device, so Lewis couldn't see where the safety car is, because he was beside it.

I'm saying that in non-specific, hypothetical future race. If passing the SC gives a DT and you're the leader behind it just pass. Just shows how most teams and the FIA still are complete noobs when it comes to SC

Quote from BurnOut69 :

Kudos to Hamilton for "outsmarting" again the FIA, Alonso, and everyone else. I bet they will tell him off and then come up with a rule so no one else can do that again.

Edited to add the quotes.

Outsmarting? Maybe if he would have slowed down, and legally passed the SC right before the white line leaving Alonso behind.

He had no idea what to do when he got there that's it. He certainly didn't analyse what the penalty/race situation would be. He got lucky.

Edit : outsmarting with the quotes now works better.

Sooo in F1 when you're the leader and behind the SC with the field bunched up. Just pass the SC and rejoin at the back of the pack. Spend 2-3 laps in traffic at the restart, get a DT, serve it, enjoy your free 50ish seconds gap.

Quote from Intrepid :

Why? lol Why would someone defend a position and not make it easy for a rival to get past? Do you know what motor racing actually is? So if someone is faster than you and is behind, you should let them past without issue?

Like why would Webber want to maintain 1st position and maintain the WDC lead? Why would he want to do that now?

Sometimes I wonder about people on this forum... I really do!

What's so hard to understand in the following ?

Vettel & Webber are on the same team.

Quoting Lewis...

"I had a great battle with him, and was happy to get past because it was quite a surprise," he added. "We're allowed to race out there, but we have to be sensible. At the end of the day we're a team: we both want to win the constructors' title and we both want to win the drivers' title. But we're not stupid. I wouldn't do anything dangerous to touch Jenson - and vice versa - and that's the great thing about racing each other. "

So Webber giving some room to his teammate who has a very decent run on him = "no balls or sense of what racing is about at all"

Button is a real pussy for staying away from Hamilton in T1. He doesn't know what racing is about. A real man would have stayed there and got hit. That's racing.

Quote from sinbad :

Webber would have moved back over to the right, but only at the very last moment, leaving Vettel with no time to follow him. You see this sort of thing all the time.

Vettel simply thinks Webber is more predictable than he actually is. IMO the only predictable thing about Webber is that he's not as good at passing/defending as he thinks he is, and he still expects to win every battle for a position.

Ah. I thought the very last moment was pretty much when they made contact. If there was still some time to move before braking (looks like it after viewing again) then Vettel should have known and waited before swerving. He'll know next time.

Could see it that way : what if Vettel doesn't swerve into Webber...they both get into the braking zone in the dirt(Mark isn't even close to the racing line). They have to take that corner both in a terrible situation with Hamilton half a sec behind. Way to work as a team.

Webber's mistake : he didn't show the respect you usually show to a teammate.

Vettel's mistake : he didn't show the respect you usually show to a teammate.

pibe : what corner ?? I'll be in Turn 2