Thanks. I was also thinking that if the inside rear tire loses grip, then the rear end of the car is getting less overall grip than the front end, and this would result in an oversteer reaction, but this would depend on the suspension setup and the difference in roll stiffness between the front and rear end of the car.
Lift throttle induced oversteer with open diff?
I don't understand why less locking factor results in more lift throttle oversteer. Take the extreme case of an open differential. During engine braking combined with cornering, it seems that the inside rear tire would lose grip and slow down while the outside tire would not, giving more warning, and less prone to oversteer, because only one tire would be sliding. However I gather than an open diff creates more oversteer reaction to lift throttle than a mostly closed (LSD type) diff.
Can someone here (maybe Todd Wasson) explain why this is so?
Can someone here (maybe Todd Wasson) explain why this is so?
Wanting to contribute something positive here at the LFS forums, I offer these:
2003 F1 Ferrari, a solo lap at Monza
mnzaf1.wmv
2002 F1 McLaren, at Spa, David Coulthard (low rez):
spaf1.wmv
Drag race crash, driver ended up with broken ankle, wrist, and some fingers, looked a lot worse until you realize that the car split in half and he was in the tiny back part and not in the front part that veered into the wall hard.
jf.wmv
High res (1280x720) version:
jfhr.wmv
Longer, annotated version (text added to explain what actually happened):
jfan.wmv
Mercedes at Lemans, 2 1/2 back flips, 1/2 twist, driver was uninjured:
mercfly.wmv
Souped up Porsche at Road America:
ra.wmv
Higher res version:
ra1.wmv
2003 F1 Ferrari, a solo lap at Monza
mnzaf1.wmv
2002 F1 McLaren, at Spa, David Coulthard (low rez):
spaf1.wmv
Drag race crash, driver ended up with broken ankle, wrist, and some fingers, looked a lot worse until you realize that the car split in half and he was in the tiny back part and not in the front part that veered into the wall hard.
jf.wmv
High res (1280x720) version:
jfhr.wmv
Longer, annotated version (text added to explain what actually happened):
jfan.wmv
Mercedes at Lemans, 2 1/2 back flips, 1/2 twist, driver was uninjured:
mercfly.wmv
Souped up Porsche at Road America:
ra.wmv
Higher res version:
ra1.wmv
I sit corrected, this is a valid point.
update - I was never affected by these changes, but was concerned of it's impact on other players here. I no longer plan to be an advocate for the combined axis or any other players, they can post for themselves.
Transverse leaf springs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_springs
Last edited by JeffR, .
assists and realism in LFS
assists
From the LFS main web page: "... No arcade modes, no steering aids ... highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse ... ".
There's no mention of throttle and brake configuration, much less any recommendation, or warning, that players with combined axis for throttle and brake would be later penalized by an update to LFS after purchasing a copy that didn't penalize them. Yet, patch Y has done just that with the removal of auto-blip, because it's not possilbe to blip the throttle while braking with a combined axis setup. Instead of removing auto-cut and auto-blip, these options could have been modified to lessen the advantage of using them, similar to the keyboard steering modification made a long time ago. With the removal of auto-cut and auto-blip, LFS is no longer the game affected players paid for.
Regarding assists in general, there's only the reference to arcade modes and steering aids. There's no reference to the assists that are included in real world cars, ABS, traction control, stability control, or semi automatic transmissions, or the assists such as auto-blip or auto-cut.
realism
When questioning the realism of the restiction on what tires can be used on what cars, or the recent clutch overheating factor, a common response is that many of the cars of LFS represent typical road cars. But the cars in LFS represent race modified versions of those typical road cars. Note these features:
Brakes that don't fade - Obviously no car with brakes prone to fade will pass safety inspection at any sanctioned race, so the cars in LFS have properly upgraded brakes.
Braking force and bias adjusment - This would be a significant upgrade to the braking system on a typical road car.
Steering lock adjustment - This would require replacing the steering pinion gear and rack with a custom set.
Gearing adjustment - This would require replacing all the gears in the transmission and rear end in a car. LFS uses floating point numbers, instead of tooth counts on the gears that most other racing games use (convenience over realism here?).
Camber and toe adjustment at the rear on rear wheel drive cars - This requires independent rear suspension, a major upgrade to a typical rear wheel drive road car, such as the XR GT.
Shock, spring, and ride height adjustment - This would require replacement of the entire suspension system in a typcial road car.
Adjustable limited slip differential - Another major upgrade to a typical road car.
From the LFS main web page: "... No arcade modes, no steering aids ... highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse ... ".
There's no mention of throttle and brake configuration, much less any recommendation, or warning, that players with combined axis for throttle and brake would be later penalized by an update to LFS after purchasing a copy that didn't penalize them. Yet, patch Y has done just that with the removal of auto-blip, because it's not possilbe to blip the throttle while braking with a combined axis setup. Instead of removing auto-cut and auto-blip, these options could have been modified to lessen the advantage of using them, similar to the keyboard steering modification made a long time ago. With the removal of auto-cut and auto-blip, LFS is no longer the game affected players paid for.
Regarding assists in general, there's only the reference to arcade modes and steering aids. There's no reference to the assists that are included in real world cars, ABS, traction control, stability control, or semi automatic transmissions, or the assists such as auto-blip or auto-cut.
realism
When questioning the realism of the restiction on what tires can be used on what cars, or the recent clutch overheating factor, a common response is that many of the cars of LFS represent typical road cars. But the cars in LFS represent race modified versions of those typical road cars. Note these features:
Brakes that don't fade - Obviously no car with brakes prone to fade will pass safety inspection at any sanctioned race, so the cars in LFS have properly upgraded brakes.
Braking force and bias adjusment - This would be a significant upgrade to the braking system on a typical road car.
Steering lock adjustment - This would require replacing the steering pinion gear and rack with a custom set.
Gearing adjustment - This would require replacing all the gears in the transmission and rear end in a car. LFS uses floating point numbers, instead of tooth counts on the gears that most other racing games use (convenience over realism here?).
Camber and toe adjustment at the rear on rear wheel drive cars - This requires independent rear suspension, a major upgrade to a typical rear wheel drive road car, such as the XR GT.
Shock, spring, and ride height adjustment - This would require replacement of the entire suspension system in a typcial road car.
Adjustable limited slip differential - Another major upgrade to a typical road car.
It's not what I think, because I haven't reproduced the problem. I created this thread to see what all the fuss was about in the other thread where players are complaining. The feedback I'm getting is conflicting. Some here feel that the clutch heating is exaggerated, others don't. I didn't think the segmented tire and hot spotting (did flat spotting ever get done?) was the best approach, but a proper hot spot model, based on actual contact patch area size (as opposed to fixed size segments) may have been too difficult to implement. I never understood why LFS started off with a viscous differential, instead of a limited slip differential (or just a regular differential). Based on these past experiences, I just wanted to know if the clutch overheating was realistic, since I don't have the time to test all the cars in LFS to see how each one reacts (I only tested the LX6, which didn't have a problem).
Obviously with "macros", auto-cut and auto-blip aren't an issue for me, but it is for other players, and I was just commenting on that. If the auto-cut and auto-blip were too "perfect", as was the situation with keyboard steering, then just degrade them a bit, as was done with keyboard steering, instead of removing the feature completely.
Last edited by JeffR, .
This thread is supposed to be about the realism of clutch oveheating as implemented in patch Y. I wasn't sure if this was based on real world cars that actually have clutches as bad as some claim it to be in Patch Y, or if it was just LFS fiction. Since a few responses from members who actually experiemented stated it is exagerrated, I'll chalk if off as LFS fiction.
Regarding the removal of auto-cut and auto-blip, note that it's not possible to blip the throttle while braking with a combined axis setup, which includes a lot of wheel and pedal sets and other controllers owned by members here, so I think removing auto-blip was a mistake. Auto-cut isn't a problem for combined axis, so it's not an issue, and not even needed for some cars, as demonstrated by my no lift shifts with the LX6 at Blackwood, where my lap times are essentially the same with or without the "macros", and clutch overheating isn't an issue either.
Maybe LFS is starting to get a little too elitist, but that's a subject for a different thread.
Regarding the macros (scripting), it's a standard feature included with all CH USB products, just another component in the controller package, so what's the big deal? The advantage of twin joysticks is they work well for both flight simulators and racing games. This setup is also similar to radio control transmitters, which also use two sticks for control, so this helps re-inforce my radio control aircraft flying. I'm just not into racing games enough to justify buying a G25 type wheel and pedals.
As long as we're getting off topic, and to add something that some here might enjoy, a couple of videos of my gliders in action, plus a high in rc helicopter doing incredible stunts. The first video is of a 10 foot 2 inch 4 1/4 lb thermal type glider (carbon / kevlar / fiber glass contruction hollow molded wings, not cheap, but I'm truly interested in rc gliders). The second video of a 6 foot wing span foamie (cheap and "bounceable") glider I used at a local slope site when I was first learning how to do radio control. Kind of cool to be standing at a canyon ridge flying your model both below and above you, fairly far away, and with a nice view to appreciate.
Picture of my radio control transmitter, twin sticks!
futaba.jpg
Artemis Light, 10 foot 2 inch wing span glider, being launched using 210 feet of fishing, and 60 feet of latex tubing that generates about 25 pounds of force when stretched an additional 190 feet, which launches the glider like a person launching a kite. I hand catch the glider instead of landing it.
jrartms.wmv
DAW 126 6 foot wingspan foamie at the local slope site, with a nice view.
jr126.wmv
I plan to get a small electic power helicopter, with some aerobatic ability (like inverted hover). If I like it, I'll move on to more aerobatic models. A video from one of the top rc heli aerobatic pilots, the action starts about 25 seconds into the video:
rcheli.wmv
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A wheel an pedals is no issue for me, but it is a problem for our little dog, Phoebe. We setup two mouse pads for her, left pad is throttle / brake, right pad is for steering, upshift is a tap on the right pad, downshift is a pat on the left pad. I let her try LFS with patch Y, the result was some really viscous barking that I've never heard from her before, so it's back to patch X for Phoebe. Now don't be too impressed, she barely manages to get a sub 1:30 at Blackwood in the LX6, but she claims it's not like driving a real car, but that's probably because all she does is steer while I operate the pedals. A picture of her ready for a cruise:
phoebe02.jpg
phoebe02.jpg
If you want to get techincal, "flat shift" simply means to shift without lifting on the throttle, regardless if the driver or an computerized shifter handles the actual clutch and shift operation:
http://www.geartronics.co.uk/flatshift.htm
I don't have to time the shifts and clutch dip when auto clutch is on, the game does it for me.
It didn't matter to me. LFS is just one of many racing games I own, at at the time of the keyboard change, the physics in LFS was still in early development, and it just wasn't important to me. Keyboard players have an advantage in some arcade games I own, but this didn't stop me from playing those games online. However, in the case of LFS, the game's focus is on realism so I can understand that giving keyboard players an unfair advantage didn't fit with the goals of LFS.
My issue is that sometimes a flawed aspect of physics ends up in LFS. I originally bought LFS because it had the LX4 / LX6, and I owned a Caterham, so I was interested in that. However issues with S1's tire physics and the viscous differential created a big disconnect between how the LX6 handled in LFS S1, and real world Super 7 replicas. This was eventually fixed in S2 version S, and I made a post at this forum, about how well the physics was improved at the time. I sold the Caterham back in 2006, but I still find games with Super 7 replicas interesting.
List of stuff in LFS that wasn't or isn't quite "right". Early tire physics (mostly fixed in S2 verion S). Viscous differential (how many cars ever used these?) (fixed in S2 version S). The early collision model (I rarely played online so "explosive" bumpers were not an issue for me) (don't know when this was fixed). Segmented tire model with hot spotting, (I just adjusted maximum braking force to avoid locking up tires). Clutch overheating.
I'm simply responding to posts in this thread.
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Apparently Romanian women are too smart to be fooled by this marketing ploy, and they dig low powered, small sedans. Click on the picture in the link below to see a video of how proper cars should be setup and perform, and also what racing game these smart girls consider to be the in thing:
http://www.prostreetromania.ro/prostreet.htm
Being such an informative web site, it's getting very popular and if the video is taking too long to download and view, here's a .WMV mirror of the video:
psrmn.wmv
Last edited by JeffR, .
I never stated that LFS Patch Y was causing me any difficulties, because it isn't, mostly since I can use macros for auto-cut and auto-blip for racing games if needed.
I've only questioned if clutch heating as currently implemented in Patch Y was realistic, and a few here seem to think it's exaggerated.
I've never experience the clutch overheat issue during a race. The only time I've seen the clutch overheat was a post race high speed collision on an oval server. I typically stop the car after a race, and some players ram other cars after a race. One good high speed hit will peg the CT bar and the car can't move at all, which seems excessive, but then again, the car would be totaled anyway.
The twin joystick setup I use works just fine for LFS as it does for GPL, NR2003, rFactor, Race 07, the NFS games, and Microsoft Flight Simulator. I'll use macros for auto-cut and auto-blip, if the game doesn't have the feature. Maybe the wheel and pedals would produce slightly better lap times, mostly because of the force feedback (is force feedback an "assist"?), but it's not important to me, and I'm having fun with racing games.
Even without the macros, clutch overheating isn't an issue, at least not for the LX6. Did you even bother to look at the replay I posted where I drove the LX6 at Blackwood, using full throttle upshifts with auto-clutch, and yet not clutch overheating problems? I still got a sub 1:25 lap time, which is relatively good for me. Link to replay:
jrbllx6.spr
I've tried, but they never talk back to me.
I haven't had any problems either, even without macro usage, but apparently there is an issue for some players, or cars, or modes of play. The drifters that use clutch kicking to initiate drifts have a valid complaint if this is causing problems and LFS is supposed to include drift play. Players with single axis for throttle / brake have a valid complaint regarding the removal of auto-blip, since it's not possible to brake and auto-blip at the same time (auto cut isn't needed, since players can just lift on the throttle during upshifts, but having auto-cut saves what some consider to be wasted motion).
Last edited by JeffR, .
Honda's S2000 was orignally getting 240hp from a 2.0 liter. The current 2008 version use a slightly slower revving 2.2 liter that outputs 237hp. I think the redline was 9000rpm for the 2.0 liter engine, and 8000 rpm for the 2.2 liter engine. Note that the 505hp Corvette Z06 7 liter V8 redlines at 7000 rpm, so it's not just small engines that can rev relatively fast these days.
My question is how auto-clutch is implemented without auto-cut or auto-blip. I understand how it worked before, but without auto-cut or auto-blip, how long does an auto-clutch shift take?
or just switches such as paddle shifters, or semi-automatic shifters as used in some GT and formula race classes.
Dual clutch transmissions (DCT's) are significantly different.
Formula 1 and most race cars cut fuel, not spark. The fuel cut is accomplished by skipping the fuel injection sequence to cylinders. The pattern of skipping depends on how much power is to be cut. Pre 2005 F1 race cars and most fast sequential shifters shift in 50ms to 30ms depending on the rpm drop. With the new seamless shift technology used in Formula 1 staring in 2005, the shifts are faster still. The clutch is slipped and fuel is only cut to maintain a near constant torque output during the time that engine inertia generates the equivalent torque during the rpm drop. The goal of a seamless shifter is a near constant effective torque to the tranny during a shift, to eliminate torque "spikes", which reduces stress on the drive train. Duriin an upshift, the new gear is engaged before the old gear is disengaged. This is proprietary for Formula 1 cars, but zeroshift has announced theirs:
http://www.zeroshift.com/transmissions.html
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Depends on what you mean by mass produced. Do a web search for "Hayabusa race car", and you'll find hits like Super 7, a LX4 like car with a Hayabusa engine in it. The Radical SR8 uses the heads from two Hayabusa engines to create a 360hp 2.6 liter V8.
They're used in a lot of small single seater cars, and LFS includes a few of these, the most recent example is the Formula BMW, which uses BMW's somewhat underpowerd 140hp 1.2 liter engine. The motorcycle clutch and tranny aren't used, instead a Sachs single plate dry racing clutch and Hewland sequential shifter are used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_BMW
Regarding power in general, there's been a power war going on in the USA, and the rest of the world has now joined in: 2008 Chysler 300C SRT8 / Dodge Charger SRT8 - 425hp. 2009 Nissan R35 - 473hp. 2006 and current Porsche 911 Turbo, 480hp. Mustang GT 500 - 500hp. 2006 and current Corvette Z06, 505hp. 2008 Porsche 911 GT2 - 530hp. 2005-2006 Ford GT - 550hp. 2008 Viper - 600hp. 2009 Corvette ZR1, 620hp.
Then the exotics: Porsche Carerra GT (2006 was last year mad) - 612hp, 3043 lbs. Koenigsegg CCX - 806hp, 2600lbs.
Last edited by JeffR, .
1999-2007 Suzuki Hayabusa motorcycle, 1.3 liter, 175hp at the crank. 2008 Suzuki Hayabusa, 1.34 liter, 190hp at the crank.
Regarding the power increase in the cars overall, there's no reason that LFS can't include cars of the past and current cars, which would be my preference. Then again, will H shifters become a rarity 10 years from now? BorgWarner makes a semi-automatic manual dual clutch transmission, and Volkswagen is putting a lot of these into their low end cars as well as Audi TT's.
Formula 1 cars are mostly using seamless shifters now, with more computerization planned by 2009 to reduce drivetrain breakage and the associated costs.
Last edited by JeffR, .
Yes to both (motorcycles and cars since 1966, when I was 14, drove a gokart when I was 11), but what does this have to do with how LFS implements auto clutch without auto-cut or auto blip, and how this woud affect clutch overheating?
David Coulthard in a 2002 F1 McLaren race car, with a lot of "macros" in the fully automatic shifter.
spaf1.wmv
OK, so I guess you meant cars without "no lift shifters"?
What does this have to do with how realistic clutch overheating in LFS is? I've already posted a replay where flat shifting at 9000 rpm wasn't an issue in Patch Y using the LX6: jrbllx6.spr, but apparently for some, it is an issue or that other thread complaining about it wouldn't exist. If it becomes an issue, my controller software is scriptable, and I've already created macros for auto-cut and auto-blip (but I didn't use it for that replay I made, the throttle is kept floored during the shifts).
Last edited by JeffR, .
Maybe I don't understand how auto-clutch works, especially now that auto-cut and auto-blip are gone. In the replay I posted a link to, I have the throttle pegged on every upshift, and there's an abrupt drop in rpm with each upshift. On the downshifts, I wait for the car to slow and engine rpms to drop before downshifting, but since I have a single axis for throttle and brake, I'm never blipping on the downshifts either.
Players with single axis for throttle and brake have a valid complaint about the removal of auto-blip, especially if drivetrain damage is added in later patch, but that belongs in another thread. This one is about the realism of clutch overheating in LFS as reported by some player in the other thread. I haven't done enough testing to see what the issue is. In my one test where I flat shifted with the LX6 it wasn't an issue.
This is due to a combination of a light flywheel and a grabby clutch, which is why you see deliberate tire spin on a lot of race cars when exiting the pits.
Based on the video below about clutches, their peformance clutches have a smaller friction surface, and use a higher coefficient of friction material, and the "full race" clutch didn't have any shock absorbing springs.
Despite the video, I've also read that Formula 1 race cars, use a second friction plate, which effectively increaes surface area, and that they have some type of shock absorbtion, although computer controlled deliberate slippage of the clutch during shifts also helps.
Last edited by JeffR, .
That's not what I meant, I was refering to the current gear while the engine is close to redline before the shift, not the gear after. If you look at the replay, I'm flat shifting at 9000 rpm with the default race setup (gearing) for Blackwood, and it's not overheating the clutch, in spite of the fast rpm drops. Maybe in a future version of LFS, this will cause drivetrain damage, but with patch Y, flat shifting in the LX6 isn't an issue. Otherwise, I haven't done a lot of experimenting to see how easy it is to overheat the clutch with a variety of cars in LFS, but based on the other thread, it's affecting some players.
Link to LX6 at Blackwood flat shifting replay:
jrbllx6.spr
Last edited by JeffR, .
Which is why I would want it as an option as opposed to being hard coded. In the games that have the adjusable steering view, 100% means car specificiations.
Or rely on the sounds and force feedback. I don't look at the in car steering wheel during play, but in replays, reduced visual movement when I have the steering lock turned down for joystick usage would be nice.
Sounds about right. In a Caterham with fenders over the front tires, the steering wheel turns 2.25 times from lock to lock with standard rack, and 1.75 turns with quick rack. With cycle wings (the wheels are exposed as in the LX4 and LX6), there's less clearance, and this reduces down to 2.0 and 1.6 turns or less depending on track and tire width (plus the turning radius is lousy with the cycle wings, but they look cool).
For track usage, the quick rack is preferred because of quicker correction reponse time (like oversteer). Some Caterham owners prefer the "quick rack" for street usage as well, because it enhances the go-kart like feel of the car.
Last edited by JeffR, .
Half as much is about right, I use a joystick to steer, so I reduce the steering lock from 36 degrees to 20 degrees. I would just like an independent visual adjustment, as is offered in some racing games (usually to get the in car wheel to exactly match the players wheel, regardless of the maximum steering lock angle, which is a nice feature).
Although it's not adjustable in Race 07, the steering movement looks a bit more real. On the other hand, the animated shifting is a dumb idea when there's a 1/2 second delay involved. Race 07's Caterham seems to handle quicker (fast turn in) than the LX6 in LFS, making it seem a bit more realistic to me:
r07obc3.wmv
Last edited by JeffR, .
I meant the visual movement of the wheel, as seen during a run or a replay.
I made a sample replay file, of the LX6 at Blackwood, and the wheel visually turns about 270 degrees in the tight right hander.
jrbllx6.spr
Is there an option to reduce the visual steering wheel movement (independent of the actual maximum steering angle)? I would like wheel movements in LFS game play and replays to look similar to the small wheel movements as seen in the video.
The original purpose of this replay was to show that flat shifting (at redline) in the LX6 doesn't heat up the clutch significantly. Try not to laugh too much, a sub 1:25 lap times is as good as it gets with my current skill level, and knowledge of the car and track.
It did seem excessive to me, not sure why he did it. Apparently it's not an issue for the car, so he simply doesn't care, or is trying to pseudo power shift, or he's just tired.
Last edited by JeffR, .
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I made a replay of a "no macro" run in the LX6 at Blackwood, with the default race setup, only reducing fuel, steering lock, and maximum braking force, with auto clutch on. I'm flat shifting at 9000rpm, and there was only a small sliver of orange on the clutch temperature bar that stayed about the same over 3 laps. Flat shifting at redline may not work with all cars in LFS, but it appears not to be an issue with the LX6, where the rpms only decrease during shifts because the engine is already at redline.
Since I use joysticks, without any force feedback, I use a bit of induced understeer to control the LX6 when it drifts. At my skill level, and how well I know the track and car, a sub 1:25 lap time is about as good as it gets for me. I'd put more time into LFS, but I don't want to mess up my NFS driving techniques.
jrbllx6.spr
Regarding the macro capability, it's pretty advanced, since all of the outputs can be mapped through a scriptable "virtual" device, axis, buttons, keystrokes, and mouse clicks. A single press of a button could be used to lift throttle, press clutch, shift gear, release clutch, add throttle, restore throttle to controller position. If anyone is actually interested, you can read the manual here (it's a help file), in the CMS Scripting section:
ctlmgr2.hlp
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It holds water if there are cars in LFS with more power, more traction than his car. I analyzed his video. The tires start making noise at about 3500 rpm, 5.75 seconds into the video. He shifts out of 2nd gear at 15.5 seconds into the video for a 0 to 60mph run in 9.75 seconds, and there are quite a few cars in LFS that can do better than this.
However, to be fair, referring back to the Z06, the friction material in the Z06's clutch is stickier than typical cars, but it's not a drag racing clutch, and if a driver deliberately slips the clutch excessively during launches, the clutch can be overheated. Note that the Z06 can reach 61mph in 1st gear, which translates into a potential slipping the clutch for over 3 seconds on a bad launch. Releasing the clutch very quickly and letting the tires spin for a bit is the preferred method. In the first drag video, Ranger stated that he "launched at 3600rpm", and "came out of the clutch fast" when launching with the drag radials, which only slip for a short time.
Last edited by JeffR, .
This is exactly the point of my thread. When flat shifting, drivetrain damage is realistic, clutch slipping isn't, at least for most cars, but there are exceptions.
Based on two videos posted earlier in this thread, some cars do have clutches that slip when flat shifted, either on purpose to protect the drive train, or because the clutches are just relatively weak, or because they are worn. Note that the slippage in those videos didn't appear to worsen over time, so although there was a lot of slippage, it didn't generate enough heat to worsen clutch grip to the point that the clutch actually failed.
No he doesn't, you can hear that he's lifting during shifts, but he does chirp the tires on the 1st to 2nd gear shift, although this can only be heard on the noiser drag radials used in the first video, and not the stock tires used in the second video. In those Z06 drag videos, the engine rpms aren't going to drop much, but with 505hp (SAE minimum) on a 3150lb car, chirping the tires on the 1st to 2nd gear shift will happen on a fast shift, even with drag radials. It should be pointed out that the Z06 has an always active maximum torque limiter that reduces engine power if excessive torque is detected, to protect the drivetrain. The Z06 drag racers say that it's only noticable with drag tires, and not stock tires. Still the torque limiter can't prevent inertia related effect; if some idiot went full throttle and dropped the clutch while in 5th gear from a standing still position, I'm pretty sure something in the drivetrain would break as mentioned above, since the clutch in a Z06 isn't going to slip like the clutches in the cars from those two earlier videos did.
My point of linking to those drag videos was to note the drivers comment that desired shift points were only 100rpm less than where the rev-limiter kicks in. Regarding flat shifting, if flat shifts are made made near redline, then the rev-limiter acts as an "auto-cut" during such flat shifts. As far as I know, there are no racing series that ban the usage of rev-limiters.
It's a stock Corvette Z06, with a stock clutch. Ranger uses drag radials on an otherwize stock Z06 in the first video for a 10.85 ET, and uses the stock OEM Goodyear runflat in the 11.22 ET run. In the first video, he does chirp the drag radials on the first to 2nd gear shift. Again my point of those drag videos was the drivers comment about shift points close to max rpms from the rev-limiter.
Regarding auto-cut and auto blip, companies such as Motec, make data aquisition systems and engine management systems with features such as clutchless, no lift shifts (via auto-cut, using pressure sensors on the gear shifter) with standard transmissions. These products are used by even casual racers that simply do fun runs on track days as oppose to real racing. I assume that there are some racing series that ban the use of no lift shift systems, but I don't know which series do and don't allow these.
http://www.motec.com/products.htm
The bottom line for some here seems to be that yeah, clutch slipping from flat shifting isn't realistic, but until drive train breakage is modeled in LFS, clutch failure was an alternative method to discourage flat shifting. Since LFS has a reputation for being realistic, I was surprised that the developers simply didn't wait for the drivetrain damage model to be incorporated into LFS rather than patch Y's unrealistic (to some here) clutch model as a means to discourage flat shifting.
The combination of removing auto-cut and auto-blip, and adding clutch failure to Patch Y has obviously been an issue for some S2 license owners, based on the complaints about this in the other thread. In my case, it's not an issue because I simply took the "Motec" route and programmed auto-cut and auto-blip in to my controller's "scriptable" driver to replace the now missing feature in LFS.
Last edited by JeffR, .
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG