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AA Members/Limads Rules
1
(42 posts, started )
AA Members/Limads Rules
Hi, there, our trusted AirAttack team members and limads!

With the rising number of you and generally loose conditions for accepting new members (or rather community supporters, because we're not yet a proper team, whatever that means) and for giving out the extended rights certain problems appeared.

This post should give clear guidelines concerning team membership and extended rights usage on all AirAttack servers. Please read carefully and adjust your approach in case it is not in accordance with some expectations. Thanks!
  1. Be sure to read the server rules by typing !opt and clicking on Server rules button. Every one of the points there applies to you as well as to other racers.
  2. AirAttack founders never needed strong words, you do not need them as well. WTF and similar messages are not acceptable either. Either you know (or check from replay) who caused troubles and if that was on purpose and based on this you act. Or you do not know and such message is useless.
  3. Never use the extended rights for your own advantage, never force your will on most of other people. Do not restart race just because you or your friend crashed, let the majority decide. Of course there may be special situations requiring manual restart, but there were reports about clear restart abuse.
  4. Use kicks and bans sparingly, based on bad driving or behavior. Kicking or banning people purely based on !tm output is simply wrong. Watch such drivers closely, warn, kick, only then ban. Too many kicks and bans will eventually kill the server, so be reasonable and reserve lengthy (dozens of days) bans for hardcore crashers. Give newbies a chance, only if really necessary use very short ban.
  5. Try to keep generally good atmosphere on the servers. Be friendly to other people, do not humiliate anyone, and do not laugh at others. Be calm, ban crashers, but try to help other people that are just learning LFS. Do not escalate your private disputes with other drivers, back down if possible and necessary.
  6. All AA servers should be newbie-friendly, as much as possible. There are only a few pro drivers, much more average drivers and many many slower people with potential. Making AA popular among average/slower people is of prime importance. If you're fast, learn to expect actions of slower drivers, slow down if necessary.
  7. Generally you should understand the following: You have the extended rights to help to manage the servers and to enable others to have good and clean races. By getting the rights the AA admins put trust in you hoping you'll never misuse them.
  8. If you're AA team member wearing the [AA] tag, all the above applies to you with doubled force. You represent AirAttack for the outside and you must be seen as nice, reasonable and helpful person. If you're not able to behave according to AA principles, you cannot be AA member.
  9. And here's the necessary final paragraph. Any AA member/limad seen violating the above outlines and generally damaging AA can have his status lowered or be excluded from the team or removed from limads list without prior warning. Of course this goes also the other way: Very good people (and this does not concern lap time in the least) may get limad rights and have their status raised.
Feel free to add below your suggestions concerning other guidelines that you think are necessary. Based on this I'll try to update the list. Do not hesitate to discuss things with me or anyone else via private messages here in LFS forum.

Happy racing on a server that you help to manage. Thanks for your good work!
finally some written rules for the limads, hope everyone read this, because some limads on the formula bmw server really gone wild in the last times
Indeed, I received reports of some bad behavior and I saw things that clearly were not correct. The above rules should ensure every limad is using the rights in a fashion that will keep or even enhance AA popularity. We're talking here mainly about demo world, which can be a paricularly harsh environment.

I'll just repeat that if anyone of limads sees abuse of limad rights he should report this. While I probably will not act on one report, when they repeat and accumulate, it will be a strong basis for some adjustments. Our task is to run popular demo servers that will not eat themselves as it happened with the rally server.

In due time also AA team matters will need to be solved. Member ideas about how we should work as a team are most welcome. Currently we're just a community of people racing mostly on AA servers. But this may of course change. For now let's just make sure everyone with limad rights uses them to help people, not to bully them.
With my time here on lfs i see lots of things, I've also realized that you can't espect much on demo servers, because as the name said it's (only) demo, so there are mostly beginners there.
But there are some ppl kicking and banning newbies just because they only make use of the command "!tm" and didn't even wait a few laps/races to see how those racers behave. And that surely is not the atmosphere of a demo server.
Of corse I can get a little bit frustrated about those drivers, too, if they are creeping on the racing line but I think you should keep your calm, especially as an Admin/Limad, in those situations and not just throw them from the server.
Good write there EQ! One question though. Even if i dont have in mind to brake theese rules, do they have to be at private races? As AA Rallycross Cup for example? I mean, if i ban someone without warnings it could just be that he brakes all my race rules in the event.


Cheers

Gelin
Well said, mugen, that's exactly what I meant. Unless the beginners are causing lots of troubles, there's no need to kick, much less ban. And I've seen a bit (large one, that is) too much of this lately. While the FBM server gained sort of a pro-server status, it must remain friendly even for average people that make mistakes, otherwise it will die.

Gelin, I think you're perfectly able to judge yourself whether to ban somebody. If it is a private event that you're organizing, you decide who stays. The guidelines apply mostly for the demo servers and for new limads that suddenly have power over other people. Some take it calm, others not so much. But I think there is yet time to adjust.
Alright, just wanted to be clear there. Not racing so much on Demo anymore, mostly because i've become on of them... (Slow drivers )

I guess i can check in once in a while to make sure it looks alright.
Be friendly to other people, do not humiliate anyone, and do not laugh at others.

^ This I find hard for people to follow. Getting a lot of lols and When I'm already getting a bit annoyed/frustrated (mostly because my connection is too slow for 2 comps, and there's 3 comps in the house) of crashing.
Well, simply do not make people angry (that is, more than they are already). If you are friends and you know they'll accept your teasing, it is no problem of course.

For example many people are happy when they reach e.g. 1:15 (or 1:14, whatever) in FBM for the first time. There's no need to make fun of them, saying how slow they are, congratulation is much more appropriate.

Similar approach creates good atmosphere, all drivers trying to improve and with nice racing as a result.
Recently there's been a certain decline (or at least sudden drops) in the FBM server usage. I've seen the pattern before on our rally server, it is a first sign of something not going right. Seeing the troubles our over-managed rally server went into and seeing the popularity of our basically un-managed GTI server the cause seems obvious - there's been too many forced actions on the FBM server recently, too many kick/bans for too trivial reasons. It looks to me as if average people were more happy to take care of themselves through voting, than being subject to whims of other strange people (our members and limads ).

Everyone will notice the changes I did trying to save the situation. I've removed many limads (non-members) from FBM server, not because they're doing a bad job, but because having too many managers proves to be highly contra-productive. My sorry goes to anyone feeling hurt by this move. Do not take it personally, try rather to see if it was a move in the positive direction, try to spot the real troublemakers, convince others you are right and soon they'll be voted away. Let's put our trust back into humanity. Average GTI people prove they can manage the server by themselves, which makes it strong. Let FBM (and rallycross) people show they're capable of the same.

Soon I'll add other protective measures into Airio, e.g. bad voting based on high difference of safety rating. Currently people with significantly lower rank are kicked for voting against AA old-timers. This works very well. Unfortunately there's no way to simply cancel a started vote, I'll ask Scawen to supply this functionality as soon as possible, it is much needed for better automatic server/Airio run.
The drops may be because everytime you spin, crash, go wide, make little mistake and you're getting already a bit annoyed/pissed/frustrated because nothing going right. Then there comes some players "=) =) =)" or " " or "HAHAHAHAHAHAH " or "Lol" or anything else like that. It's really annoying when you're already annoyed...

And Cata, no, i'm not really your buddy (anymore) so please stfu in the server if you read this =)
Very nice. First, nobody should laugh at a team mate (or anyone else) if he makes a mistake. If I respond to some crash, it is sad face. Little smile is appropriate only once the crashed person smiles first.

Also, a team member should not really get annoyed. If they are his own mistakes that make him mad, just leave (after saying bye, obviously) and come back another time. If they are mistakes of other people, he has the means to solve the situation.

But I really feel like stupid writing these simple things. Isn't it obvious, part of good relations and good behavior?

Also note that AA team is undergoing necessary serious reduction of its members now. There are some people that fit perfectly AA philosophy, there are others I'd like to see as AA, and unfortunately there are also AA people that are trying quite hard to be excluded from the team and deprived of all privileges soon.
#13 - 5haz
There are a few team members whose driving would deserve a ban, if we were able to ban them, that is. :rolleyes:

Its verry dissapointing to see that Airattack servers have become just like all the others: a server with no admins, you've taken away what made Airattack better than other servers.

Already in the short time I've been on your FBM server today I've come across several people who need to be kicked and banned for deliberate crashing, but now theres nothing I can do and people are resulting in pointless votebanning which achieves nothing and allows bad drivers to stay on your server, which will raise tempers and do no good to your server's reputation.

Your server was popular because it had lots of people to keep it clean, now watch it descend into uncontrolled crashing, while people who expect to get beyond T1 without being driven into in every race will have to find somewhere else. Never mind, I supppose thats what the [AA] philosophy is all about? :rolleyes:

If you want to kill a server, thats the way to go about it.

Also I don't understand where you get this 'recent drop in usage' idea from, the FBM server is nearly always full!
I do not agree with one single point of your message. But of course I may be wrong, time will show. The FBM server was the strongest a few months ago when it had just a few people with extended rights. When more and more people got the rights, situation became messy. One is not happy with the way someone else drives and it creates tensions. Too many kicks for trivial reasons and simple mistakes make average people think twice before returning and be again subject to strangers that have for some reason power over them.

AA philosophy is to be newbie-friendly to maximum possible extent. But many limads were beating this principle, seeing the FBM server as one with pro-status, where new and average people should not be allowed. But that would never work, most people are average drivers and the fast must simply adjust their driving style. Average people make the server alive, not a few 1:12 guys. And it was the average people that were being recently punished and that saw some deterioration of atmosphere.

I saw this all happening recently on our rally server. Loads of people with extended rights punishing new drivers simply because they were learning. Personal disputes, then drops in usage, then prolonged periods with empty server. What I'm trying to achieve, by removing many people with limad rights, is to stop the bad cycle starting now. I would call the move a democratization. With much less privileged guys around I, as an average user, would certainly feel better, not like a child that needs to be protected and also punished.

GTI people on our two other servers can take care of themselves, they can spot and ban crashers very efficiently. There are no admins around and it works the best. I hope the FBM community can grow just as mature. But we're dynamic. If indeed this move proves as wrong, there's nothing easier than to get back to the old track. But my view is, the old track leads to dead end.
Quote from EQ Worry :Unfortunately there's no way to simply cancel a started vote

i could swear that there was a command that does it, i just can't remember what it is, and i don't see it in the manual.
Quote from bunder9999 :i could swear that there was a command that does it, i just can't remember what it is, and i don't see it in the manual.

IIRC the host can press ESC and it will be cancelled?
Quote from Gelin SWE :IIRC the host can press ESC and it will be cancelled?

Just tested and it doesn't work.
#18 - 5haz
Quote from EQ Worry :I do not agree with one single point of your message. But of course I may be wrong, time will show.

Yes, it will, and not in your favour.

Quote from EQ Worry :The FBM server was the strongest a few months ago when it had just a few people with extended rights.

I have been racing on your server since 2008 and as far as I can see there has always been lots of people with extended rights.

Quote from EQ Worry :But many limads were beating this principle, seeing the FBM server as one with pro-status, where new and average people should not be allowed.

For ****s sake this has nothing to do with how fast someone is at all, there are too many crashes caused by negligence...

- Not checking mirrors.

- Entering the track without looking first.

- Ramming into the back of people in braking zones.

- Moving over on cars as they pull along side.

- Parking on the racing line.

- Refusing to apologise or using a bad excuse.

When I first went online with LFS i made sure I could at least avoid doing the above things, and it should be the same with everyone, these are the basic standards.

Quote from EQ Worry :by removing many people with limad rights, is to stop the bad cycle starting now. I would call the move a democratization.

Stopping bad behavior by removing all the admins? Makes no sense to me.

Democracy does not always = good.

Quote from EQ Worry :With much less privileged guys around I, as an average user, would certainly feel better, not like a child that needs to be protected and also punished.

I'm sorry but thats the way it is, the majority of LFS users are so brainless that they have to be treated like children in order to maintain clean racing.

Quote from EQ Worry :GTI people on our two other servers can take care of themselves, they can spot and ban crashers very efficiently.

Hahaha, last time I went on your GTi server I had a lot of trouble with one particular driver who drove into me every time I pulled along side when approaching a corner, unfortunately I couldn't give him the punishment he deserved because he was best buddies with one of your team members, and so he was allowed to carry on crashing, while I was made to look like the villain even though it was me who was being crashed into, your GTi server has been laughable for quite a long time and that is why I usually avoid it like the plague.

Quote from EQ Worry :I hope the FBM community can grow just as mature. But we're dynamic. If indeed this move proves as wrong, there's nothing easier than to get back to the old track. But my view is, the old track leads to dead end.

What you will end up with is a server full of very bad driving standards, frustration and tempers will only get worse, you may have a newbie friendly server then, but it will be more like a banger race than anything else. You'll just stick your head in the sand like you always do, I don't know how you can make decisions on the FBM server when you're hardly ever there anyway.

I hope you and your smug, provocative admin friends have fun in your 'newbie friendly' crashing server, people who wish to have some clean racing will only vote with their feet.

I have been loyal to the FBM srver and tried to keep it clean for 3 years almost, now I'm wondering why I bothered. It may only be me thats had enough at the moment but I'm sure I wont be the last to abandon the sinking ship that is your servers. Its a shame you had to ruin it, another nail in the coffin for LFS in general.

By the way; [AA]Magicmill, you should watch some of his driving, its hilarious.
Quote from EQ Worry :Just tested and it doesn't work.

I think it is when Airio isnt on it works
Quote from 5haz :Yes, it will, and not in your favour.

It must be marvelous feeling to be so sure of the future, so insightful and all-knowing. I'd love to get that feeling sometimes too, but for me, every day brings new surprises.

Quote from 5haz :... your GTi server has been laughable for quite a long time and that is why I usually avoid it like the plague.

Uhm, whenever I was there, and that is quite a lot, under many different names, I saw very reasonable racing. Crashers very exceptional and quickly dealt with, many nice and close races. I love to go there and usually I do not have to use admin rights at all.

Quote from 5haz :You'll just stick your head in the sand like you always do, I don't know how you can make decisions on the FBM server when you're hardly ever there anyway.

I was always around, racing quite a lot, watching even more. Unfortunately I did a very wrong decision, using different usernames, not my own. Dunno which people you can remember: MidlifeCrisis, Aoede, Gully Foyle, Lorelei, Siren and a few others, I've removed them all. But I can assure you I know the situation on all AA servers very well. And believe me, I've seen enough on AA and elsewhere to be able to take decisions such as this latest one, as well as to correct earlier wrong ones if needed.

Quote from 5haz :Its a shame you had to ruin it, another nail in the coffin for LFS in general.

My views about what are the nails into LFS coffin are pretty much different than yours. I can understand your frustration of losing the limad rights, but your extrapolations into the future I see as purely imaginative and way from reality. I did not remove in fact that many limads, but, sorry for the personal note, you with your overly aggressive responses were always on the brink of being excluded, and now the time has come.

In fact it is exactly the behaviour you've been showing recently that I do not want to see anymore. Think for yourself how many people will actually read as good news your last message: "I'm never coming back." Sorry for this jab, but you gave me a few too.

Nothing personal, it is just that your style was not compatible with what I'd like to see in regard to privileged people on AA. Good luck to you in finding the right servers, both demo and licensed!

PS: I apologize for anything above, that you may see as personal insult. It was not my intention. I do not enjoy disputes and quarrels, I do not want to escalate matters. Yet I like making things clear, and that I tried.
#21 - 5haz
Quote from EQ Worry :It must be marvelous feeling to be so sure of the future, so insightful and all-knowing. I'd love to get that feeling sometimes too, but for me, every day brings new surprises.

It dosen't take a genuis to see what will happen.

Quote from EQ Worry :Crashers very exceptional and quickly dealt with

That wont be happening anymore.

Quote from EQ Worry :I was always around, racing quite a lot, watching even more. Unfortunately I did a very wrong decision, using different usernames, not my own. Dunno which people you can remember: MidlifeCrisis, Aoede, Gully Foyle, Lorelei, Siren and a few others, I've removed them all.

I have a lot of different names too, perhaps you don't remember my less angry self ages back.

Quote from EQ Worry :My views about what are the nails into LFS coffin are pretty much different than yours. I can understand your frustration of losing the limad rights, but your extrapolations into the future I see as purely imaginative and way from reality. I did not remove in fact that many limads, but, sorry for the personal note, you with your overly aggressive responses were always on the brink of being excluded, and now the time has come.

Aggressive or not, I helped keep your server clean, now I'm frustrated because there are people parked on the track causing accidents on your server and the problem isn't getting sorted out.

Quote from EQ Worry :In fact it is exactly the behaviour you've been showing recently that I do not want to see anymore. Think for yourself how many people will actually read as good news your last message: "I'm never coming back." Sorry for this jab, but you gave me a few too.

I've had plenty of good races and have good friends on your server, but only people who actually use their brains, I don't know if you've ever seen me race against good people, (do you not rememeber the FBM championship?), but I use my mirrors and leave enough room without fail

Quote from EQ Worry :Nothing personal, it is just that your style was not compatible with what I'd like to see in regard to privileged people on AA.

You're right, I like to actually do something about idiots, rather than trying to pretend the problems are different to what they actually are.

Quote from EQ Worry :PS: I apologize for anything above, that you may see as personal insult. It was not my intention. I do not enjoy disputes and quarrels, I do not want to escalate matters. Yet I like making things clear, and that I tried.

Do you think that I enjoy arguing too? No I don't, I'd rather just race but this isn't the ideal world and so there are idiots that need to be dealt with.

I just can't do getting crashed into in every race anymore, before I had the chance to do something about it so it was at least bearable.
Quote :
- Not checking mirrors.

Just few scenes from recently seen replay, taken on AA FBM, no finger pointing, just example how it's seen (mostly) from perspective of relatively fast racer.


Sadly, democracy failed here. Since none would believe unknown dude when someone better known around is voting against him.
The only one banned was the leftmost dude.
First, big thanks for a reasonable response! I mean it.

Quote from 5haz :It dosen't take a genuis to see what will happen.

One would say the more admins there are the better. WRONG! It fails, completely. I saw it on rally server, I saw it on other popular servers too. As they were popular, they gained more members. The members applied different criteria, kicking/banning people inconsistently. People getting a bit annoyed. Then members just rather talked than raced, teased each other. Average people leaving (over the span of several weeks), being just molested by one admin or other, members staying alone, then disappearing too, server dying...

Much better to have five reliable, calm, consistent, active admins, than 30 (as it was on FBM) or almost 100 (as it was on rally) inconsistent and unmanageable, disappearing ones. They actually push the server down. Now note that I do not say you were doing that (!), the simple number and the way the average admin behaves have that effect. I'm trying to put things back to the state where they worked best.

Quote from 5haz :I've had plenty of good races and have good friends on your server, but only people who actually use their brains, I don't know if you've ever seen me race against good people, (do you not rememeber the FBM championship?), but I use my mirrors and leave enough room without fail.

Yes, that is one BIG problem. (Thanks to JoRuss for his exemplary pictures!) My view is that there cannot be a viable PRO server, even one imposing as loose requirement as 1:18 FBM lap time, much less anything stricter. FBM server applies this dynamically for just a few hours a day and it has big impact with many people being spectated/kicked. And even PRO people would rather go to open but full server than to locked almost empty one.

But then they need to adjust. Not everyone is able to control the car as precisely as needed for close overtaking manouvers. PRO drivers simply cannot do such things, they need to slow down and wait for better opportunity. Sadly, many of them do not accept this fact. They do dangerous manouvers that would be successful when dealing with other experienced drivers (or at least ones that know perfectly what is happening around them), but that fail miserably in all other cases, resulting in crash, angry accusations and kicks/bans. Again, see JoRuss' picture, it is a marvelous example.

With FBM server we're trying to strike a ballance. Server needs to be popular among average people to be alive. They are the core of the drivers. The fast ones have their prime time when the server is locked and doesn't allow complete newbies to enter. But always they need to know whom they're trying to overtake and adjust accordingly. Anticipate (you can do that so well ) what the car in front will do and there'll be a clear overtake.

Eh, enough for now. I'm just trying to analyze what I see, reach some conclusions, and act based on them. What one sees is sometimes very different from what one would expect. In the past I did some changes to AA servers that were very much hated by other AA admins and even lead to internal disputes. But, in my view, the changes proved to be good, successful. And as a successful server I see one that is popular, often full. I know of no other criteria, this one tells it all.
To cancel a vote, you use !cv - if its not already being answered. But I've never really used it, so dunno if it works on LFS commands.
Quote from IsaacPrice :To cancel a vote, you use !cv - if its not already being answered. But I've never really used it, so dunno if it works on LFS commands.

Oh no, that one is Airio command for manually cancelling e.g. race restart vote, it has nothing to do with kick/ban voting. As far as I know there is no way (neither command nor InSim data) to cancel some started kick/ban vote. I already wrote to Scawen that it would be a very helpful addition to LFS, simple vote cancelling. So far I received no response...
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AA Members/Limads Rules
(42 posts, started )
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