The online racing simulator
Racenight 21.8.2005
2
(44 posts, started )
To make it clear one last time. I did not make any decisions seconds or minutes before race2, nor during race1 or even on the same day. The idea, followed by decision, was born at the same time I created the race calendar. A long time ago, in other words.

Sharing this information with members of OLFSL is the part where I failed, and in my opinion which I have made clear that I'm sorry about.

However, all pools were driven with the same starting order, so the only unfairness lies in the wasted time and stategic planning T7R member(s) did (I assume there were no others, since there hasn't been complaints from other parties).

Me and BBO had a friendly chat after race, I can't remember stating anything different. That replay file he sent me was a life saver, which I was and am still thankfull. I recall I made that part clear also during the chat we had. (just checked the conversation we had to confirm this)

Bismarck's comment during the race (the one I wrote about above, several posts ago) I couldn't verify, because it has not been recorded in the mpr-files I have. Therefore I can't be sure what exactly he said (because I don't remember the exact words) and if it really was him (because I've seen no reply from him and because I might have mixed him with other T7R team member).

This is my last post here, for this conversation seems to be a bit pointless and looks like to be never ending story. We have gone through all the facts now I think - OLFSL staff will change and make the rules more specific, so there's no room for interpretation in future seasons. Also, I promise to be more carefull that I always inform about changes and specialities in our events/seasons - I'm still only human, and therefore able to make mistakes. Errare Humanum Est.
Just a suggestion, but maybe set the "Cannot join once the race has started" option, therefore would stop these things happening?

Originally Posted by Mrs FienDi
..but complaining about the fact that we didn't use reverse starting order in this one race, is to me nothing but being petty and making others feel bad

Complaining about the rules not being addeared to is not being petty nor making others feel bad. Example. Football. The striker shoots to see the goal posts move 3 meters to left in the second half

So Fendi has apologised ( hmm, 5th time I think now on various sites ) so lets just move on, as he has said, Learn from it. :Handshake
So, just reading between the lines, the only reason somebody would have been really upset about not using a reverse order start for the main race is if they had sandbagged (intentionally finished poorly) the qualifying race. Sandbagging may not be a breach of the stated rules, but it certainly is a breach of the spirit of the rules and is generally considered to be unsportsman like conduct in real racing series.
I am not saying this is what happened. But just seeing how some racers were really upset that it was not reverse order, it seems that something was going on. I would have been upset if it were a reverse order start because I was doing my best in the first race to get a good start position in the second race.

The issue with the player disconnecting and then reconnecting and racing is a bit of an issue. It sounds like the league is addressing this problem. I do know that other leagues give points for laps finished so that players can rejoin and try and gain a few points at least.
Quote from Hallen :....I would have been upset if it were a reverse order start.....

That's what i don't understand. Everone who read the rules (but most of you didn't do) on the OLFSL site should have said something that day, because the rules say (Look under Rules):

Race (how we do it):
2nd Race (if exist):
The grid will be arranged in reverse order of the first race results. The slower or unlucky guys will have a chance to achieve a better result.


So we had
1st race 4 laps sprint
2nd race 30 lapper
Meant for me there are 1+1=2 races and because there was no other info in front of the races, i thought it goes by this rule and that's why i had to make the complaint. Not that hard to understand.

But it is already cleared and it is not where this thread is all about.

Another thing is, you said "intentionally finished poorly". Have you ever seen a full F1, DTM or BTCC series or another one. Heared about Team orders and Race or Team strategies? I don't think that this is unsportsman like (well sometimes not attractive for the viewers) but It's one BIG part of racing series all around the globe. Sometimes they do it without letting the audience know and sometimes not. So for me it's not unfair to think about strategies or plan races to archieve the best possible Team endresult in a season.

No names but there where other Teams in this last OLFSL race who let members just start for this last event, do you think just for fun or maybe for protecting their best horse in the stable or to "steal" others some points. I don't know but who cares, it's not forbidden or unsportsman like after the rules. It's just a part of racing in leagues. But not every Team is as honest as mine in that point.
Quote from [email protected] :

Another thing is, you said "intentionally finished poorly". Have you ever seen a full F1, DTM or BTCC series or another one. Heared about Team orders and Race or Team strategies? I don't think that this is unsportsman like (well sometimes not attractive for the viewers) but It's one BIG part of racing series all around the globe. Sometimes they do it without letting the audience know and sometimes not. So for me it's not unfair to think about strategies or plan races to archieve the best possible Team endresult in a season.

I am not going to dispute that this stuff does go on. However, the F1 rules specifically state that there shall be no "Team Orders", there is no #1 driver. I am just saying that don't take the path of thinking that it is not unsportsman like. It is unsportsman like. It is unethical. If you are OK with that, then there is nothing I can do about that. Just because the big race teams pull these kinds of tricks does not make it OK and it does not make it right. There is no money involved here, there is nothing to win other than bragging rights. It is not the same as professional racing. This is for fun. Look at it this way, if you are unwilling to exactly state what you did publically, then you probably should not have done it.

The spirit of the rule you quoted is to promote good racing and to give all drivers a chance at finishing well, especially if they had an unfortunate incident in the first race. If drivers sandbag the first race in order to start better for the second race (which had the majority of points), it goes against the spirit of the rule. It is still up to you to decide because the rules cannot specifically state everything that you should not do and there would be no real way to police it anyway.

Personally, I am extremely pleased with my results from this mini-season. I had a couple of good races and finished pretty well. I would have been really happy to finish 1st. But that achievement would really mean nothing if I had to use questionable "strategies" to get there.
Quote :No names but there where other Teams in this last OLFSL race who let members just start for this last event, do you think just for fun or maybe for protecting their best horse in the stable or to "steal" others some points. I don't know but who cares, it's not forbidden or unsportsman like after the rules. It's just a part of racing in leagues. But not every Team is as honest as mine in that point.

Can you explain this and also who did that?
Quote from Neokiller :Can you explain this and also who did that?

No. I'm just speculating about some things. I also said "maybe" and "who cares" i wonder that you do


Quote from Hallen :I am not going to dispute that this stuff does go on........... It is unsportsman like. It is unethical.......

I remember a DTM race i saw (3 weeks ago or so) where the former F1 World Champion Mr. Häkkinen had to let Gary Paffett go for the 3rd place in lap 43 just because he (Paffett) has better chances to win the whole league. And no one said anything about it, not unethical, not forbidden, not unsportsman like, it's as i said just part of (Team) racing.

So you have your meaning about it and i got mine, and that's ok .
The world would be boring if we all have the same opinion.
And i bet this thread wouldn't be here too.
Quote from [email protected] :
I remember a DTM race i saw (3 weeks ago or so) where the former F1 World Champion Mr. Häkkinen had to let Gary Paffett go for the 3rd place in lap 43 just because he (Paffett) has better chances to win the whole league. And no one said anything about it, not unethical, not forbidden, not unsportsman like, it's as i said just part of (Team) racing.

well actually the TV commentators said all those things (except for unethical...) and most of the spectators (maybe not the mercedes supporters) thought exactly that, but even if it'S against the rules in some series (like F1) it will always be there - in real racing and in simulated racing

as long as it stays within some limits, i'm ok with that, but talking about german touring car sport, there's also an example of absolutely unethical and unfair team-racing. i guess some of the germans remember the last race of a STW (supertouring) series, where the (several laps before that!!!!) disqualified alzen (i hope i remember the name correctly) kicked out the leading dirver cutting through an s-curve and made his teammate win the championship with that

and i can well understand that finishing worse than possible or blocking with the intention to slow down, not with the intention to keep your own position, is seen as unfair and unethical by a large part of the racers. i don't like that kind of teamwork - but ordering as many drivers as possible into a deciding league race and trying to steal as many points as possible by these 'one-event-drivers' from the others is in my eyes not unethical or unfair
I've always thought of all the championship drivers as gentlemen racers. I know i am and that's how i like to be. I mean its not like you're going to loose your job, thousands of euros from your sponsors, worldwide recognition...

would be interesting if it costed $ to fix the cars hehe...
Quote from DasKlee :ordering as many drivers as possible into a deciding league race and trying to steal as many points as possible by these 'one-event-drivers' from the others is in my eyes not unethical or unfair

Reading this, I, for one, think that the OLFSL subscription system may have to be used to discourage this type of 'strategy', although we must definitely seek to keep the threshold for new joiners as low as possible.

Solar Hydro
We can of course try to prevent these things (sandbag driving and team strategies) by making new rules.

How about something like this..

"If a racer is known to be one of the fastest racers in OLFSL races, but suddenly drops to one of the lower pools in several races, he can be punished for it."

"Team strategies are not allowed. If we see a team strategy (for example 2 racers protecting their team mate by blocking other racers) a penalty will be given."

Would this be good? I doubt you want to see this in the rules but it can be arranged.
Quote from Mrs FienDi :We can of course try to prevent these things (sandbag driving and team strategies) by making new rules.

How about something like this..

"If a racer is known to be one of the fastest racers in OLFSL races, but suddenly drops to one of the lower pools in several races, he can be punished for it."

"Team strategies are not allowed. If we see a team strategy (for example 2 racers protecting their team mate by blocking other racers) a penalty will be given."

Would this be good? I doubt you want to see this in the rules but it can be arranged.

actually i think a larger difference between pos. 15 of pool 1 and pos. 1 of pool 2 should do the trick, but then again, some people would start complaining that the hotlaps are too important
in my eyes the overall ranking is important for the top 10-15 drivers, so i think they would end up in pool 1 most of the time anyways - and for the rest of the drivers, a competitive race against drivers of equal strength is the main reason to be in the league - they do care about the overall rankings, but not as much as a driver racing around pos. 5 or 6

and blocking is in my eyes part of the competition - as long as it's for your own position - blocking by deliberately going slower than usual and trying to widen the gap between your teammate ahead of you and your following drivers is something different and shouldn't be allowed. but it's very hard to proove it and i bet there will be very long discussions about any actions taken because of this in the future, if you decide to make it illegal

disallowing racers to join mid season like solar hydro suggested is also a possible way to handle unwanted team-play situations like in the last race - actually a rule i would like to see - you have to subscribe before the start of the season but it's up to you if you race all or just a few races. this way there will still be a lot of room left for these last race tactics, but at least it will prevent some of it

i wouldn't force the drivers to race in every race there is though, because we all have a real life away from LfS and it simply is impossible for every interested driver to be in every single race
Quote from DasKlee :actually i think a larger difference between pos. 15 of pool 1 and pos. 1 of pool 2 should do the trick

Me and FienDi have been talking about increasing the gap between pools. That may happen before next season.

Quote from DasKlee :disallowing racers to join mid season..

This issue has been on the table for a loooong time. Sorry, but not gonna happen as long as me and FienDi have anything to say about this. When André started OLFSL, he wanted it to be a league for all, and we're sticking to that. Not allowing people to join during an ongoing season would not be that. We get dozens of new members during seasons, especially since S2 was released, so excluding those racers might kill their interest. We want to encourage people to join us, organize fun events and provide a server where they can practise fair racing. What's the point in practising if you can't race until next spring? OLFSL seasons are usually long, so this is not an option to us.

Quote from DasKlee : i wouldn't force the drivers to race in every race there is though, because we all have a real life away from LfS and it simply is impossible for every interested driver to be in every single race

We're not forcing anyone to participate in every race. We didn't have this part in the point system before, but it was created because our members wanted it. They wanted to be rewarded for being in every race and prevent people who participated in 2 or 3 races to stay on a high position in the standings.

Impossible to please everyone, but we still try..
Quote from Mrs FienDi :
This issue has been on the table for a loooong time. Sorry, but not gonna happen as long as me and FienDi have anything to say about this..

sounds good to me as i'm no friend of this either - it was just a suggestion to fight these 'last race tactics' mentioned before, which were in the eyes of some of you guys (including one of your organising-team) some sort of cheating

being a newbie myself, i'm glad to see you guys (and girl) trying to keep this league beginner friendly. it wouldn't have been an issue with a 2 event season like the last one, but in a season lasting several months, it will scare people off
Let me be clear: I responded specifically to the suggestion that a team would, at some stage in an ongoing season, suddenly call upon a bunch of NEW (experienced) racers to join OLFSL, in order to protect the standings/race position of one (or more than one) of their team's members. This looks anticompetitive to me.

Generally (see also my previous post) I am all in favour of allowing racers to join mid-season, and in my view OLFSL should definitely permit new joinings.

Perhaps special scrutiny by the staff can address this matter.

Again: this comment was only made in response to a suggested team strategy.

Solar Hydro
Quote from Solar Hydro :Let me be clear: I responded specifically to the suggestion that a team would, at some stage in an ongoing season, suddenly call upon a bunch of NEW (experienced) racers to join OLFSL, in order to protect the standings/race position of one (or more than one) of their team's members. This looks anticompetitive to me.

After reading this part, I figured out one more way to prevent this.. I used to do that a few seasons ago in every race, but then we dropped the old system and started with this current point system and due to that I changed my way of making the pools and forgot all about this. Luckily I remember it now

I used to arrange the pools so that all new members race their first event in the lowest pool, and then in the next race they're racing in the pool they're supposed to be racing in. It makes the lowest pool very uneven, but this is one way of doing it. It doesn't prevent team strategies completely, but it makes it a bit harder for them.

But I'll say this only once: I do not, under any circumstances, approve team strategies in our events. It is unfair, unsportsmanlike, and can be arranged to be a rule violation as well. How - that I haven't figured out yet, but I will if I have to.

I used to watch F1 when Mika Häkkinen was still racing there. Even then I thought it was pathetic not to let one guy win because the other one has better chance of winning the whole season. Or that the other one blocks racers who are behind his team mate, to let him get away so others can't reach him.. If he can't do it himself - then let him lose. It's about driving skills, not about how well your mate blocks people.


Quote from Solar Hydro : Again: this comment was only made in response to a suggested team strategy.

I know
Quote from Mrs FienDi :
I used to arrange the pools so that all new members race their first event in the lowest pool, and then in the next race they're racing in the pool they're supposed to be racing in. It makes the lowest pool very uneven, but this is one way of doing it. It doesn't prevent team strategies completely, but it makes it a bit harder for them.

actually i don't like this, because drivers in the lowest pool will have to face 'aliens' without a chance of winning - and since probably at least one new driver will join every race, the regular pool 4/5/6 (which ever is the lowest) drivers will never win a single race

i just came up with another idea. drivers will not get any points for their first season race. the only races where new drivers get points are the first 2 (or 3) races.
in any of the following races, they will be able to race but treated as guest starters with no influence on the overall poinst ranking

if a new driver finishes 4th, he gets zero points in his first race and the 5th will be treated as 4th place

this applies only to the first race of a driver, so in his second appearance, he will get all the earned points and if he makes his first arrearance before race 2 or 3, he will get points for every race
Quote :"Team strategies are not allowed. If we see a team strategy (for example 2 racers protecting their team mate by blocking other racers) a penalty will be given."

Why? blocking is competition same thing happens in real life but not to protect someone in his front but as DasKlee said it's very hard to proove or to some people accept it, but i never saw anything like that in olfsl, and i dont believe that it can happen in the future in the majority of the teams that race in olfsl.

regards
Neokiller.. If you read the whole thing I wrote, you'd notice that it was JUST A SUGGESTION and mainly made because people kept debating about team strategies etc. I offered one solution, which I'm sure no one wants. No one said it's gonna happen, but it's a possibility if we can't come up with another solution to this. It seems to annoy a lot of people, which makes it a league issue.

But like I said, it was just something I pulled out of my hat to end it.
2

Racenight 21.8.2005
(44 posts, started )
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