I know there is talk about bikes in the devs old long term plans but I really can't see how the control inputs will work with a serious sim without developing it for one very expensive sophisticated bit of hardware. I think the physics side of things should be relatively simple as one would hope most of the car side can be translated aross fairly easilly.
Why not? You only need 7 axes of input - what's expensively sophisticated about that sort of controller setup, and why would developing for such a common thing (e.g. pedals such as CH rudders and a multiaxis controller such as an xbox pad) be any more difficult than what LFS already can do?
LFS already can manage that many inputs.. I could see how not having something like TrackIR might be quite a handicap for proper riding, though.
from someone who has done a fair bit of track time on motorcycles, i think TT Superbikes on PS2 sucks donkeys balls...
And for the love of god man, no LFS shouldnt have motorcycles...
Look at what LFS is and how far its come... for the small team that makes it possible its an incredible achievement.
I think the devs are racing themselves nicely into gaming hall of fame with this sim...
Yes everyone has their irks but i don't see too many other little teams out there doing what these guys have committed themselves too...
I think the devs will continue to make this a fantastic car racing sim and leave the bikes alone... god willing...
Sure there's nothing too difficult about getting the right number of input axes (I counted 10 in front of me) the problem is trying to co-ordinate them to actually feel natural and be usable, I wouldn't have a hope in hell of trying to use 7 of these axes in front of me because I don't have enough limbs and even if I did it would be quite a skill to get it all to work together naturally. Really any bike sim is going to need some kind of hardware at least as complicated as a wheel and pedals even if you can get away from the full bike type thing you see in the arcades, which is the only way I see it really working well.
I don't know about you Ajp, but neither LFS nor any game ever felt natural right off the bat. You have to forget you are in front of a computer display and get into the game itself. Each game is varyingly easy to do this with for each person, but the easier ones to fir your brains like a glove tend to be those that you like and/or can relate to, e.g. driving a four wheeled chassis on rubber pockets if your name is Andretti.
Trying to match muscle memory/habits of a video game's input intermediate to those from the real life intermediate (steering wheel+ rack&pinion, pedals+cables&pulleys, gear ) of an identical system (road + tires + suspensions + chassis + gearbox + engine, etc) is not as important as your brain wearing the virtual car or motorcycle like the chassis was its legs and the tires the skin of its feet.. that's how you do it in flight sims too, because that's how it works in reality: walking or running up stairs you don't think of your articulations and muscles, or of the nerves commanding them, you think of the stairs's surface and of the feel of the contact patch under your feet. Analogously, all during flight you are the plane, and the air flowing on its airframe, not just the particulars of the control mechanisms.
Flying a P38L, you don't let the fact that your plastick toy HOTAS joystick is not the same shape as the authentic P38L's, nor that it has nowhere near as much throw or length, nor that the axes in your hands arent the same as a lot of other planes' actual instruments paired to those input intermediates..
All that matters when controling a vehicle are the things at the other end of the controls. I'm not being apologetic for the crappy substitute that is something like an xbox gamepad, I'm just saying it is negligibly more difficult to immerse yourself into the virtual motorcycle with it.
I admit that OTOH, in terms of precision it is mediocre compared to a 900deg controller, but it isn't so bad as to spoil the fun of riding a bike in LFS to the point that they are not worth including in LFS (obviously not in the near future).
LFS has physics so immersive that almost everyone gets hooked on them in seconds. Bikes are on par with cars in terms of driving, racing, and pure adrenaline fun, as Tourist Trophy, GP500 and other games have already shown.
Combine the two: Bikes in LFS would eat up those games - it's a no contest except in terms of graphics, as it has two things those games don't even come close to: great physics and intuitive feeling. None of the previous games has done anything essential that's revolutionary and/or that LFS can't do better.
@Breizh - I sit on a car seat, have a steering wheel, 3 pedals (well 4 actually), and a gear stick (admitably this one is back and forth rather than H pattern), now that is pretty much what my car is like to sit in. When I drive I tend to try and remain sitting in my seat. Now on a bike you have basically the same plus at least four degrees of freedom moving your body around, gets to 6 if you take into account the up down movement of the body which would be hard to measure and has a huge aero effect. I really can't see how all that will become natural
Like you said, you're driving the car via X commands, not looking at where you're going and thinking what to push or pull as opposed to where the tires should go and how the weight distribution ought to be managed across a bend.
I don't know how else to explain it to you (or rather don't have time to). You ought to be able to forget your controls and have nothing in mind but the vehicle you're controling and the environment its evolving in.
Like I meant before, the difficulties of recreating the ergonomics of a bikeare not a dead-end: economicaly, other games (sim and arcade alike) have shown the games sell despite the oddity of controling a bike via gamepad or joystick. It's also obvious that it doesn't detract from the fun of riding and racing bikes (see the size, endurance, and enthusiasm of e.g. the GP500 community).
LFS can do all that, and do it better, so it stands to reason that it would have better odds of attracting bike ethusiasts the same way it has gotten LFS fans hooked despite the sounds and graphics, and until a few patches despite the slippery physics. The feel of the bike and tires is at least as important for enjoyment and confidence in racing as it is for racing cars, and LFS does this at least as well as any other game..
So there would have to be a major offset to void all of this and make bikes not feasible - which playing via a gamepad isn't, imo. I do concede controling a bike via a steering wheel is an odd choice both in intuitiveness and in its wasting four fingers to a single axis.
I've gotta go, but the last thing I can say is that a set of pedals (esp. 4-axis rudder pedals) and a gamepad with 6 axes and one or more pressure sensitive buttons is enough to control all but minor things on a bike: steering (1 axis), gas (1), clutch (1), brakes(2), lean (2), which in the above controller setup would leave two or three axes for things such as how hard you're standing on the pegs, how you're tucking in, or whatever.
It's doable, well enough that it'll be at least as fun as every other game made yet, at the small price of having to learn a new control method that's negligibly more difficult (in the above case) than learning to ride/race a real bike from scratch.
Jeez Antt69. Either you have no imagination, or you just dont get it. Superbike 2001, was brilliantly immersive. It recreated the feel of a bike, and racing a motorbike beautifully. It took me back to the days when I raced them.
I REALLY Miss that theres no decent racing bike sim out there as good as SBK 2001 that also has a decent online servers n community. I would happily pay for a decent and i mean decent realistic physics & feel of a good road racing sim for bikes. Motogp is ok, but its all a bit too arcadey for me. Ive not seen a good one since SBK 2001 but that never had server support for multiplayer.
If LFS added bikes, I'd HAPPILY pay twice as much for LFS and I"m poor lol