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Scawen
Developer
Quote from OTone :

Is this supposed to mean we can have multiple races at the same time, in the same server?

Please enlighten me Big grin lol

That is something created by sicotange and you can have a go on it by joining the WS Metropolis server.
Scawen
Developer
It seems to me the spawn points just have too high a Z value. LFS searches for a surface downwards from 2m above the spawn point's z value.

If you put a start position on the ground there and reset, are you spawned on top of the concrete? [edit - sinanju says it's ok in this case].

Also if you car is below there and you press SPACE, does your car jump above the concrete?

If you are using car positions to get the original value for spawn points, you could try lowering the Z value by 0.5m so it's near ground level instead of near the centre of gravity.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from vitaly_m :Thanks for sharing the plans.

If Eric finishes a track sooner than tyre physics are ready, will the track be released sooner than tyres?

Yes, now that we made the decision to sell S3 licenses, there is no reason to hold back tracks because of tyre physics. The quicker we can get a track out there, the better, as the S3 license upgrade will look like twice as good value. But it will take a while as Eric is working to a high detail level as you can see in Westhill and Rockingham.

Originally the tyre physics delays held up some things, and still holds up the Scirocco. As most people know - and this has never changed - tyre physics was and still is the reason for the delay in the Scirocco.

The tyre physics update is the best thing that can happen to LFS on the code side. On the content side, new tracks are the best thing.
Scawen
Developer
It will also allow us to simulate more different types of vehicles because the tyre model should scale correctly from small tyres to large tyres. There are so many possibilities from having a better tyre model, not only that it feels better and more fun to drive as you put the power on coming out of a bend and so on. A physics model based on real physical principles that produce the mathematical functions that produce the slip curves and the way of combining lateral and longitudinal forces (they aren't 'combined' as such, they just come out of the model naturally).

And no, I'm not going into details now. Right now I'm trying to get this quick update out of the way. And as I said then I'm working on functions for Eric and at last I'll be back on the tyre physics. If there's something interesting to say about it in a few months, then perhaps I will.
Scawen
Developer
Obviously it hasn't been proceeding a lot as I've been working full time on other things. There is only one of me.

What benefits they will bring? They will behave more realistically and feel better to drive. Nothing do do with changing a few numbers. It's an entirely rewritten tyre model.

For more info, drive a bit in LFS then go and drive a real car. What differences do you feel? Those differences should be reduced. That's the plan.
Scawen
Developer
I noticed that my previous post could be misread, so I just want to make it clear there will be no tyre physics updates in the coming patch.

1) Test patch in a few days with crash fix, a few small lesson editor fixes, possibly an MPR smoothing.
2) Not going to get into a massive patching session. I've just come off one. Just release the full version with a few minor updates.
3) Do some editor functions that Eric has asked for.
4) Work on tyre physics.

Disclaimer: That's the plan, but plans change...
Scawen
Developer
The only way to provide a truly customised version of LFS is through InSim.

However, if you want to try to allow the user to do a few things through text commands assigned to wheel buttons, you will need commands like:

/spec
/car XFG
/join
/track BL1R
/ready
/end

The text commands are documented in the commands.txt file in your docs folder.

You can assign text commands to wheel buttons in Options - Controls screen in the CTRL+ and ALT+ sections.

Also you can assign multiple text commands to a single button press by using a script. The script is simply a list of LFS commands, saved in the data\script folder. You can run a script with the command /run filename and that is the text you would assign to the wheel button.
Scawen
Developer
I didn't want to get into a new full version at this point, but a crash bug is enough to change my plans. We can't leave a crash bug out there in the official version. So I'd like to do a few small fixes and improvements to make it more worthwhile. I won't be getting into any monster graphical updates now, as that has far lower priority than the tyre physics which I must get back onto without delay, after doing some editor functions to help Eric with the track he is working on.
Scawen
Developer
One way is to have an external program connected to Live for Speed through InSim. Wheel buttons can be assigned to /i messages that will be sent out through InSim, so now the external program knows when you press any wheel button.

The InSim program can then display options on the screen, that might be tracks or cars to select, and the user can select the appropriate option by pressing wheel buttons.
Scawen
Developer
T3charmy, I moved your posts to a new thread in the programmer section:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/89117
Scawen
Developer
I think to convert from MCI heading to ObjectInfo heading you do this:

- Shift it right 8 bits (i.e. divide by 256) so it has 256 values (0 to 255).
- Add 128 (i.e. rotate by 180 degrees) to align it with the ObjectInfo headings.
Scawen
Developer
sicotange, I moved your posts to a new thread in the programmer section:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/89114
Scawen
Developer
Quote from sicotange :When the PMOACTION is PMO_ADD_OBJECTS the UCID in the IS_AXM reply is always 0. It could be useful to report the UCID set even when PMOACTION is not PMO_SELECTION.

I think the UCID is zero because the objects were created by the InSim program running on the host.

Quote from sicotange :• You must click edit in the autocross editor for an IS_AXM with PMOACTION == PMO_SELECTION to work. Why not lift this limitation?

So what is the suggestion really? That LFS should automatically change the editor into edit mode if a selected objects packet is received?
Scawen
Developer
I have managed to reproduce it using vitaly's method. Thank you for this report and reproduction. It's a bit mysterious, something to do with accessing memory after it was freed. But I'll track it down as top priority.

EDIT: Now I know the cause of it.

EDIT2: It seems to me this bug is not new, and has been there ever since shadows could be cast on layout objects, I think when the concrete objects were introduced.

EDIT3: Now I've found a seemingly more reliable way to get the crash, and in this case it takes place in the new code that selects the correct draw lists depending on your height above ground. In this method, you do not wait for the car to go out of physics. Just use in car view and pause the game before entering SHIFT+U mode. Then delete the object the car is sitting on. You should get a crash when you exit SHIFT+U mode.

EDIT4: Fixed in my version. There are a few quick things on my list that have come up so there should be a test patch out sooner than expected.
Last edited by Scawen, .
Scawen
Developer
Thank you all for the feedback and thanks sinanju for your version of the instructions.

I'd say better not put it on the wiki yet, as I'm going to make a few improvements in the editor. It's half term week here and I've just finished a big push, so I'm not getting stuck into serious work, but can do some simple updates.

Of course I want to make things easier to use and remove any pointless restrictions, if possible, as discussed.

Are there any completely different lesson types that should be added? Or types of lesson that would be good but the current modes do not support?
Scawen
Developer
Quote from Pose1don :Okay but there was handbrake on MRT for years in LFS. Why the change now?

Thanks for explanation.

There was previously a handbrake on all the single seater cars in LFS. But there are no handbrakes on single seaters in reality. Some people were using the handbrake to gain an advantage in some places while hotlapping. This forces other people to use the same unrealistic trick to remain competitive and there was a request on the test patch thread to remove this exploit while we were on some other hotlapping improvements.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from PeterN :Seems that if you remove an object from underneath a frozen car (engine off, physics stopped), when the car does eventually get updated LFS now crashes. Previously the car would fall as expected.

Please can you give me a step by step explanation how to reproduce this, or a layout?

Also, if it did crash, do you have the crash address? In case it's hard to reproduce...

If LFS really crashes, this is very bad and we need to release a new full version without delay.

My failed attempt to reproduce a crash - I put a start point on a high piece of concrete, restarted the race to put the car up there, switched off the engine so it goes out of physics, went back into the editor, removed the concrete, exited the editor, car goes back into physics and falls to the ground as expected.
Scawen
Developer
It's not a kart, but it is an FSAE car (with suspension and a 600cc motorbike engine).

I tried to find out if FSAE cars had handbrakes, and I asked on the forum too. I did not hear from anyone on the forum and I could not find any reference that stated that FSAE cars have a handbrake.

In the end, after watching some FSAE videos, I thought it was quite unlikely that they have one, so decided to exclude them like the other single seaters.
Scawen
Developer
For a start, make sure you have enabled the post processing shader in Misc options.

The different examples in the psh file are mostly commented out, and you can see this because their line starts with a double slash.

// This line is a comment and is ignored by the compiler
// Comments are also used to make code inactive

So, if you wanted to try the gamma example, you should add // to comment out the currently active section of code, remove the // on the gamma line of code, save the file then type /rsh in LFS. Watch out for any error messages or warnings that will appear as messages at the top left of the screen.
Scawen
Developer
Hi sinanju, thanks for the test.

First of all I see I made a mistake with the folder name. It's actually data\training and not data\lesson. So I've edited the first post with that correction. Hopefully that should solve the problem you found and you should see those files, ready to load.

I see what you mean that my description could be quite confusing. I've changed the "How a training lesson is constructed" section to be more informative.

It's interesting the way you have written your version, in a step by step way that is probably easier to understand. Anyway for now at least I have added a bit more info. I know it needs more, like a description of the format for the text file.

About your last question, yes, if you loaded the layout and image file into your lesson, then when you click "save" at the bottom of the screen, the saved file is a .lsn file, representing the lesson itself and that would be something you could add to the list.
Training Lesson Editor - Instructions
Scawen
Developer
As many of you know, we released our simple training lesson editor in the 0.6K update. This is obviously not expected to have mass appeal, but some people would like to use it. We have recently had a technical support query from someone who wants to use it for educational purposes. They want to be able to edit lessons but don't know where to start.

I decided this afternoon to have a go at writing a short description / instruction manual for it. I don't want to go into great detail with it but thought it might point people in the right direction.

I thought I'd just attach it here, in case anyone with a vague interest could let me know if it reads OK or if any of it is unclear, before we send it out.

Thanks!

Quote :How to use the training lesson editor in Live for Speed


NOTE : The training lesson editor was not originally designed to be released, so it is not very user friendly or beautiful. However, the lessons are fairly simple so it is possible to get good results. This guide will help to point you in the right direction and further information can be found by looking into existing lessons using the editor. For many types of lesson you will need to create a layout. A layout is a collection of objects (such as tyres, cones and chalk arrows) and abstract objects (such as start positions and checkpoints). Layouts are created in the Layout Editor AKA Autocross Editor, which you can access by pressing SHIFT+U in game. Instructions are in the docs\Autocross.txt file.


To access the training lesson editors:

SHIFT+T on main entry screen to access Lesson Editor or List Editor.

- Lesson Editor is used to create or edit individual lessons
- List Editor is used to edit the list of lessons seen in game


How a training lesson is constructed:

A lesson consists of a few files in the data\training folder.

1) Every lesson needs a .lsn file (created in the lesson editor)

Select:

Car Name - self explanatory
Track Name - self explanatory
The number of the configuration (e.g. Blackwood GP track is 1, Rallycross is 2)
Layout name - see below
Image name - see below
Lesson Type - Overtaking / Test Drive / Timed Layout / Emergency Stop
Some other information depending on the type of lesson

The .lsn file is created when you click the save button at the bottom of the screen.

2) Description text file with the same name as the lesson but .txt instead of .lsn

The text file must be created in a text editor, e.g. Notepad. The Objective, Purpose and Tips sections are separated by a line containing only a backslash.

3) Many lessons use a layout. The layout can be loaded in the lesson editor.

If your lesson requires a layout, it must be edited in the autocross editor (also known as SHIFT+U mode or the layout editor) from where it will be saved in the data\layout folder. For your lesson to access the layout file, the .lyt file must be manually copied into the data\training folder.

4) A descriptive image in jpg format. The image can be loaded in the lesson editor.

The image is usually a screenshot of your car driving the lesson. It must be cropped to a square size e.g. 512x512 pixels and saved with a filename starting with "zzz_"


More information about layouts:

In order to have a look into the layouts used for the existing lessons, it may be a good idea to copy all the .lyt files from the data\training folder and paste them into the data\layout folder so you can easily load them in SHIFT+U mode and see what objects a lesson requires.


Testing a lesson:

After saving your lesson from the lesson editor, you will want to test it. Go back to the main entry screen and click on "Training". You will see the edited list of lessons but not the lesson you just created. You can press SHIFT+T to see your newly added lesson.


Editing the lesson list:

To make your lesson appear in the ordered list in the Training screen (without needing to press SHIFT+T) you will need to edit the Training List. This is simply done in the List Editor where you see "add" and "del" buttons and some arrows to move the selected lesson up or down the list. After adding your lesson or deleting any you don't want to see, click the "save" button at the bottom of the screen


www.lfs.net - 15 February 2016

Last edited by Scawen, . Reason : corrected mistake - the folder is data\training not data\lesson - also more corrections
Scawen
Developer
It is ok to select the 59 option. It's some wierd Microsoft thing. A slightly odd solution to a genuine slight issue. I can't remember the details but you can google it. Something to do with 59.9 Hz or something (?). Anyway if you select that I think you'll see 60 FPS in game (if you enable vertical sync).
Scawen
Developer
I suppose it's to avoid intersecting physics objects that fly apart madly when touched. That problem doesn't really apply to unmovable objects. But then the question is, why would you want ordinary objects to intersect?
Scawen
Developer
By the way, if you are editing a shader and want to see how it looks inside LFS, you don't need to restart. Just type /rsh
Scawen
Developer
Pleased the patch is going well. Thanks for the feedback!

Quote from PeterN :Minor issue with Start Lights, pressing optimise in the layout editor seems to only optimise the lights for the user who pressed the button instead of everyone. Other players need to reconnect.

I agree that is quite annoying. Here's some more info.

Guests can also click optimise in SHIFT+U mode. They don't need editing rights. Also if the race restarts, all objects are optimised for everyone.

You can also send an InSim packet that optimises it for everyone. The packet can be empty and just needs the appropriate PMO_ flags set.

I really need to make it fully automated so no-one ever needs to think about the optimise button.
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