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Scawen
Developer
A packet goes to the host, the host sends a player info packet to all guests including yours, your guest then sends a car info to the host, the host sends that to all guests.

So... yes, a delay is inevitable. Shouldn't be long though, and it's no longer than it ever was before.

If you have a 3 second delay then someone must have switched on join requests but is ignoring them.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from Amynue :As far as I know chaperone is supposted to show up only when you get close to the boundaries of your "play space", which you assign during the installation. So you may have to reconfigure that.

No, I set it up for a seated experience. There are two options in the setup and I chose "seated". I am beside a wall in so I cannot set a large open room play area (because I can't push the headset through the wall). SteamVR is buggy about this. Sometimes it shows a ring on the floor, sometimes it shows a box around me, sometime it shows a box in front of me and to my left. LFS specifies a SEATED VR experience.

Just trust me, the behaviour in the SteamVR system is buggy, wrong, inconsistent and annoying. Also, just try to imagine how many times I've reconfigured and reconfigured the area setup, trying to fix this.

I'm the sort of person who tries many times over, before I state that some software is bugged.

Quote from Amynue :That's kinda good since the speakers are not good for VR and the software is written with headphones in mind. Not sure if you noticed, but Vive Pre have a cable with audio connector somewhere near the back of the strap. Did you get earphones with your Pre? Some guy on Reddit claims that his Pre was bundled with some HTC in-ear earphones.

There are some crappy little earphones, yes. But I am not interested for one second to stick them in my ears. I have headphones if I wanted to use them. But I am in a racing simulator and I have to put the headset on and take it off loads of times. Also I have to lift it frequently to see the keyboard. So actually it is not really good that it disables my speakers without asking me, and that there is no option to enable them. I am in a seated experience and have a warm box on my face. It's going to be more comfortable to not have headphones on if you are trying to race for an hour, unless you like being drenched with sweat and your VR headset to be fogged up.

Now I am just supposing here, but Valve don't seem to think about seated experiences a lot. As a Vive user, I can see that the seated experience support is very buggy and it's the same with the speakers, it's an oversight. They don't seem to really test seated things or think about them much.

Quote from Amynue :A bit off topic but - any news on your submission for the Rift CV1/SDK 1.0? I've seen that your thread on Reddit about patch 0.6M caught the attention of Philanthropi (Developer Relations, Oculus VR).

No, that was the last I heard.
Scawen
Developer
This error message is is only shown if the connection has no join request waiting for a reply.

Maybe you are sending two JRR packets, or another InSim program is connected that already sent a JRR. Or your program took 3 seconds to reply and the player joined already.

I see in your example, you already left the pits before the JRR. So it looks as if your JRR is arriving after a successful pit exit. But that should not be the case.
Scawen
Developer
I got the Vive Pre set up and running today.

After updating the Nvidia drivers, it was able to use Direct mode and then LFS ran well as expected, maintaining the required 90 fps.

Good news is the lighthouse is far quieter. The old one was very noisy and quite unbearable but the new one is not disturbing. It is an audible whirring with the volume something like a computer fan. I can even leave it running while I do something else.

The picture seems quite nice. I guess I'll do a comparison with the Rift DK2 at some point. Obviously as a "first generation" device, the resolution is still low when looking into the distance. But that doesn't really bother me. Actually it works quite well and I'd like to go and do some racing with it on.

I am interested in the camera, that supposedly allows you to see the world, temporarily, through the headset. That would be helpful to see the keyboard when online. Although there is only one camera so I expect the scale of things to look a bit funny. Trying to switch on the camera in the SteamVR software, it just told me nothing was working, but there was no explanation. Haven't looked further into this yet.

On the bad side, there was a lot of installing, waiting for drivers to install, error messages, switching off, switching on, updating firmware, more error messages, waiting, random success messages, more firmware, computer restart, etc... I have no idea why it's so hard. It seems to take hours. Anyway, after enough restarts and retries it eventually works (except for the camera, apparently). The SteamVR software is buggy and sometimes just crashes, sometimes the headset is detected then suddenly it claims the headset isn't there, then you can't exit the software because it is eternally "preparing to exit" or similar. Task manager is required at that point. After many attempts, I could run the room setup but that is quite buggy too. It's best to avoid running SteamVR at all. LFS, though OpenVR, can switch on the headset. But the settings are only available through SteamVR. Once I managed to run SteamVR long enough to be able to switch off the awful "chaperone" which is an annoying grid that just makes a mess of the picture. The idea is to stop you walking in to a wall, and I'm sure that's useful for room scale experiences but is totally pointless when you are seated in a racing game! There is no easy way to switch off the chaperone but eventually I set it to "developer mode" and now, as long as SteamVR is not running, I can run LFS and not see the chaperone. One other thing I don't like is it's quite hard to allow the speakers to work. By default, the Vive takes over the sound and it wants you to wear headphones. There is no option in SteamVR to switch off this behaviour and it must be done in the Windows audio settings which seem very confusing. Anyway after randomly switching things on and off for 20 minutes or so, I could hear sound again! At least that setting does stick!

The unit looks much nicer, smaller, and is a lot shorter from front to back. I found it more comfortable than the old Vive. The cardboard packaging was of a high quality and it seemed physically like a production unit instead of a prototype. Even all the plugs were UK style so no adapter was required.

Overall I'm quite pleased with it, because it is usable and seems to provides a good VR experience. I will look into the camera, to find out how it can be enabled and if this can be controlled by the software. Ideally I'd like to assign camera on/off to a wheel button.
Scawen
Developer
I did the same! Wink
Scawen
Developer
I suspect that you updated the dedicated host EXE but did not install the full package. The problem then is the ROCKINGHAM_GHOST in the wld folder is from an earlier test patch and only has 3 lighting configurations.

To check this, look at the date on the wld file. The correct one has file date 11 February and size 395 KB.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from nacim :What are the things that will be developed on theses test patches now that you fixed the crash and smoothed MPRs ?

I think you can just search my recent posts, where I did state some plans.

That will be more efficient than me writing down everything again.
Scawen
Developer
I don't know what you mean by "draw distance of the reflections".

I don't know of any quick things to improve reflections.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from Sobis :Oh my! The replays are so nice to watch now! Is it me or the car itself is jumping a bit less now?

That should be the case because in most cases the smoothed inputs are a more accurate representation of what actually happened between the two position packets.

Quote from K0Z3L_43V3R :Noticed that when you watching replay from in car view after rewinding replay back, camera changes to TV mode. But other than that Thumbs up for smoothing, very nice.

Edit: it seems to happen only in one replay on some cars, attached replay, see cars my (KingClub), InTelliEye, DM®DA BUTTON 05, Silver, 9397, MĎ Gang

It seems that is the case for cars that joined after the start of the race. I checked in M and it's the same, so it's not new. I'll have a look to see if this can be corrected.
Scawen
Developer
That is an interesting question. I think it would be difficult to implement for a true spectator. You would have to be connected to the host but running just over a second behind real time. If you then joined the race, you would have to catch up 2 seconds. I don't rule it out completely but there are issues.

I was wondering about a different mode where you could be watching a host, as if watching a MPR. Someone created a program years ago, I think it was called "LFS TV" and it streamed an MPR to remote computers and you could watch it nearly live. There were problems though as it wasn't properly supported by LFS.

What I am thinking is there could be some InSim packets to stream MPR data to an InSim client, and that InSim client could have guests connected, to which it streams MPR data, for LFS to watch that as if it was an MPR (or possibly ends up as an actual MPR file). The InSim client could also request another set of current starter packets, as found at the start of an MPR file, and it would do this each time it got another new spectator.

This way, you could be watching a live stream online but a couple of seconds behind time. I guess rewind and fast forward could be available as well so that could be useful...

I have other priorities at the moment though, that sounds a bit complicated for now.
Scawen
Developer
No, there are serious issues in increasing the packets per second on the internet. Sometimes people think it is just about bandwidth (which is serious). But that is not the only problem. Every time a position packet is received, with delay, there is a CPU cost running that car from the time the position packet was sent, up to the current time. What happens then is that when a lot of packets are sent, e.g. many cars arriving at turn 1, every client computer begins to suffer excessive CPU usage, which in turn increases lag, which in turn increases CPU usage for the local computer and others. So you can end up with a much worse multiplayer experience than now.

Packets per second isn't really the main problem. Latency (I mean the time taken for a position packet to be sent from a guest, to the host, then on to another guests's computer) is the main problem, and it is not helped by increasing packets per second. On the contrary, it can be made worse. The latency is very low on a LAN, so there is not much CPU usage on prediction and that's why pps can be increased.
Last edited by Scawen, . Reason : typos
Scawen
Developer
Test Patch 0.6M2 contains improvements to the lesson editor :
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/89160
Scawen
Developer
Test Patch 0.6M2 includes input smoothing in multiplayer replays :
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/89160
Test Patch 0.6M2 (now M9)
Scawen
Developer
WARNING : THIS IS A TEST

NOTE : THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN NEW TYRE PHYSICS OR ANY NEW CONTENT

PLEASE TEST BEFORE YOU POST

PLEASE AVOID : OFF-TOPIC FEATURE REQUESTS / UNRELATED COMMENTS


Hello Racers,

Here is a new TEST PATCH : 0.6M9

- New siren sound and doppler effect on all car sounds
- A long requested feature, to filter out demo servers, has been added
- Virtual Keyboard (press backspace) so you don't need to use the keyboard
- Look and Click feature (for VR) so you don't need to use the mouse
- An improvement to the steering input of remote cars
- Input smoothing for multiplayer replays

This test patch is mainly compatible with 0.6M
- You can connect online with 0.6M
- You can play replays from 0.6M
- An M9 guest's horn or flash will not be seen on pre-M8 guests
- The host must be M8 or later to allow a guest to use a siren

You cannot upload hotlaps made with this test patch because it is only a test patch, not an official patch.

Please keep a backup of your LFS.exe from 0.6M so you can easily go back if there are any problems.


Changes from 0.6M8 to 0.6M9 :

More translation updates! Thank you translators! Smile

Audio :

Reduced the minimum volume to play a sound (can hear further away)
Added doppler effect to all car sounds that didn't have it already
Removed doppler effect resulting from SHIFT+U mode camera velocity
Updated commands.txt with commands /cansiren /siren /ujoin /uai

Siren sound :

Command /cansiren now works on players that have not joined race
Command /cansiren username 0 now switches off username's siren

Fix :

Fixed a recently introduced bug in the /key and /button commands


Changes from 0.6M7 to 0.6M8 :

Multiplayer :

More accurate horn and flash with shorter transmission delay

Siren sound :

Text command /siren=off/fast/slow
Only allowed on cars with a horn and if allowed by host
Allow a multiplayer guest to use siren : /cansiren username 1

InSim :

New ISS state flags to notify if local PC is in dialog / text entry
New packet SMALL_LCS - set local car switches (lights, horn, siren)


Changes from 0.6M6 to 0.6M7 :

VR :

Crosshairs auto-hide in game when buttons visible (e.g. N or InSim)

Virtual keyboard :

Added Serbian / Croatian / Slovenian keyboard (QWERTZ)
Added Slovak, Turkish, Bulgarian and Romanian keyboards


Changes from 0.6M5 to 0.6M6 :

Multiplayer :

New Demo filter at bottom of List of Hosts screen

Virtual keyboard :

Czech and Hungarian keyboard layouts are now supported
Mouse button function (e.g. throttle) disabled if clicking keyboard

Look and click :

Crosshairs did not work with vertical scroll bar


Changes from 0.6M3 to 0.6M5 :

Virtual keyboard :

Can now operate assigned keys - Speed Limiter, Reset, etc.
Most Latin keyboards and Greek and Cyrillic are now supported
The key to toggle the keyboard is now backspace (or controller)
Virtual keyboard is now drawn in front of overlapping buttons
Shift and Alt Gr keys now affect the characters on keyboard
Dead keys (for diacritics / accents) are displayed in red
Virtual keyboard position moved above text entry dialog

VR :

Crosshairs can now go past the interface edge and fade out
Talk function (T key) can now be assigned to a wheel button

Fixes :

LFS could crash if interrupted while generating track
The Alt Gr key + a number could cause the text colour to change
Simultaneous Left + Right view keys were not working properly


Changes from 0.6M2 to 0.6M3 :

VR :

Look and click (with space or button) can be used instead of mouse
OpenVR SDK now 0.9.17 and supports live IPD adjustment (Vive Pre)
Removed interface aspect ratio 1:1 and added 14:9 (default)
New click and type buttons in place of some slider bars

Virtual keyboard :

Automatically displayed in VR mode below text entry dialog
Can be toggled by controller button or backslash key (VK_OEM_5)

Misc :

Input and sound are now enabled by default when LFS is not focussed
Mouse click on demo exit screen now exits LFS or opens www.lfs.net

Fixes :

Out-of-path start warning incorrectly showed local player name
Dedicated server did not search for path after out-of-path start
Non-dedicated server could crash if guest driver drove off track


Changes from 0.6M to 0.6M2 :

Multiplayer :

Reduced steering wobble each time a position packet is received
Smoothed steering / brake / throttle inputs in multiplayer replays
MPR smoothing is disabled by switching on network debug (SHIFT+F8)
Passwords hidden on Start New Host and Join Specific Host screens

Training lessons :

Previous and best times are shown during the lesson replay
SHIFT+R now restarts the lesson without returning to instructions
SHIFT+X exits from replay or lesson back to the instructions screen
Press 1 to watch or restart replay without finishing the lesson
ESC once starts the replay / another time to exit lesson

Lesson editor :

Reverse and open configurations may now be selected
Lesson image filename no longer needs to start with zzz_
Image does not need to be square (but is still shown in a square)
On entry to lesson editor the current track and config are selected
You can now select the lighting (weather) for a lesson

Misc :

Layout editor now allows unmovable objects to intersect

Fixes :

LFS could crash if a shadowed object near a paused car was deleted


INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS :

A FULL version of LFS 0.6M must already be installed


To install the PATCH using the SELF EXTRACTING ARCHIVE :

1) Move or save the patch into your main LFS folder
2) Double click the patch to extract it to that folder
3) When you see "Confirm File Replace" select "Yes to All"
4) Now you can start LFS in the normal way

NOTE : You can see if the patch is correctly installed when you run
the program (LFS.exe). At the bottom of the entry screen : 0.6M9


DOWNLOADS :

PATCH 0.6M TO 0.6M9 (SELF EXTRACTING ARCHIVE) (if you already have 0.6M) :
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_PATCH_6M_TO_6M9.exe (1.6 MB)

PATCH 0.6M TO 0.6M9 (ALTERNATIVE ZIP) (if you already have 0.6M) :
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_PATCH_6M_TO_6M9.zip (2.0 MB)


FOR HOSTING ONLY

DEDICATED HOST 0.6M9 (non-graphical version for hosting only) :
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_S3_DCON_6M9.zip (1.8 MB)
Last edited by Scawen, .
Scawen
Developer
Quote from Amynue :I was wondering... does Eric have any VR headset? Now that you have the Pre, DK1 is of no use to you, so maybe you could give it to Eric so he can step into the world he modeled Smile You could go even further and implement VR into the editor Tongue

Yes, Eric has a DK2 and that has influenced the development of Westhill and Rockingham. He often checks his work out in VR because it's such a good view on things. There is extra incentive to include more 3D geometry in models and so on.

Quote from Shirtkicker :Not sure about the compatibility thing - do they mean the headset can be plugged into a phone, or the headset has a phone in it? Interesting possibilities either way...

Maybe it's a program that pops up in 3D space and you can control your phone in there, like looking at the actual phone screen, or perhaps just a set of menus accessing various features. So you can be in VR but you don't have to leave behind the comfort and security of your beloved phone in the real world, and you don't have to miss a single facebook post about a cup of coffee one of your friends bought or any inane tweet by a spamming celebrity. Big grin
Last edited by Scawen, .
Scawen
Developer
Thanks for the info.

The Pre arrived this weekend. I should be able to have a look early this week. First I have to release a test patch with a couple of updates, either Monday or Tuesday afternoon.

The camera sounds interesting. I'll be pleased if it can allow the user to see the keyboard because it's so hard to type when online in LFS with a headset on.

I am not sure why it has inbuilt phone functionality. As someone who is not addicted to or interested in telephones, I am a bit shocked to think that someone can't take the headset off if they want to interact with their phone. I guess it's like the people who crash their car because answering their phone is more important than staying alive! Big grin
Scawen
Developer
Thanks for the nice story! Smile
Scawen
Developer
It is not possible to control the in game lap timer. I don't know if it will be possible in future. For now, you must implement your own timing system, using the time values in the packets.

As an example you could have a look at sicotange's system at WS Metropolis.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from asyed :On multiplayer servers, all cars are either in track or pits, invisible. LFS itself in hotlapping is fine.

This sounds like a problem with your internet connection and UDP packets.

You can try requesting TCP packets for position updates.

Press CTRL+T when you are online and this may solve the problem.
Scawen
Developer
Thanks everyone!

As 0.6M is now released, I'll close this old thread.

0.6M thread: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/89088
Scawen
Developer
Quote from three_jump :Would it be possible to get the interior updates for the cars (FX0, RB4, ...) at some point as well? Those were nearly finished in 2009, if I remember correctly. Shy
Or would updating those require an incompatible version (and a reset of the lap-times?) and are therefor kept until the physics are updated?

The cockpits of some cars are just so outdated and "ugly" by todays standards, especially when compared to the level of detail in Westhill and Rockingham. Shrug

Yes some of them are really back in time.

I know Eric wants to update the car interiors and other things. But we are agreed that another track is the priority at the moment. The S3 license looks so limited in what it offers, that updating S1/S2 stuff is just not the priority at the moment. He likes to focus on one thing at a time.

I don't know what will be the priority when the track is done, or if the tyres will be before or after the track. We're just trying to crack on.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from OTone :

Is this supposed to mean we can have multiple races at the same time, in the same server?

Please enlighten me Big grin lol

That is something created by sicotange and you can have a go on it by joining the WS Metropolis server.
Scawen
Developer
It seems to me the spawn points just have too high a Z value. LFS searches for a surface downwards from 2m above the spawn point's z value.

If you put a start position on the ground there and reset, are you spawned on top of the concrete? [edit - sinanju says it's ok in this case].

Also if you car is below there and you press SPACE, does your car jump above the concrete?

If you are using car positions to get the original value for spawn points, you could try lowering the Z value by 0.5m so it's near ground level instead of near the centre of gravity.
Scawen
Developer
Quote from vitaly_m :Thanks for sharing the plans.

If Eric finishes a track sooner than tyre physics are ready, will the track be released sooner than tyres?

Yes, now that we made the decision to sell S3 licenses, there is no reason to hold back tracks because of tyre physics. The quicker we can get a track out there, the better, as the S3 license upgrade will look like twice as good value. But it will take a while as Eric is working to a high detail level as you can see in Westhill and Rockingham.

Originally the tyre physics delays held up some things, and still holds up the Scirocco. As most people know - and this has never changed - tyre physics was and still is the reason for the delay in the Scirocco.

The tyre physics update is the best thing that can happen to LFS on the code side. On the content side, new tracks are the best thing.
Scawen
Developer
It will also allow us to simulate more different types of vehicles because the tyre model should scale correctly from small tyres to large tyres. There are so many possibilities from having a better tyre model, not only that it feels better and more fun to drive as you put the power on coming out of a bend and so on. A physics model based on real physical principles that produce the mathematical functions that produce the slip curves and the way of combining lateral and longitudinal forces (they aren't 'combined' as such, they just come out of the model naturally).

And no, I'm not going into details now. Right now I'm trying to get this quick update out of the way. And as I said then I'm working on functions for Eric and at last I'll be back on the tyre physics. If there's something interesting to say about it in a few months, then perhaps I will.
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