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S3 licensed
Hi Scawen,
I'm very busy in last year, than I have no too much activity in the forum, but I'm regularly checking the LFS web and forum and news here. I found this threat and your comment in #107.
I want write only short reply to you and to community.
I'm very amazing (in positive) how you seems whole situation about developing of LFS, and about modern times. There out are many unnecessair news and developing in many products today, what is worse after new release like before.
I'm VERY AGREE with you, and VERY SUPPORT your way. Modern capitalism = more quantity with lower quality. My password is short: For me Quality is more important like quantity. I will no more waste your time, I want only AGREE with you, and I absolutely SUPPORT you and your team and your project LFS. I agree with every word what you write in #107. Thank you for your quality oriented work, it is higher value like many new versions but every with poor quality.
Thank You
S3 licensed
excellent topic!
+1 from me!

my analogoue manual handbrake ... fx4/handbrake_640x480.gif
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Quote from sicotange :Dear LFS fanboys (& naughty trolls),

I have noticed far to much trolling and nonconstructive comments about LFS lately. Therefore I wish to express my gratitude to ScaViEr for the tremendous achievement they realised.

In my opinion LFS is a marvel and always will be. Even though I have already driven +100.000km on LFS servers I'm still exploring and enjoying the neat features Z28 has to offer. I count on the LFS fanboys to take the initiative to thank the LFS Devs, I'm sure they will appreciate it In the mean time I will continue having fun on the Z28 servers (and prepare my anti-troll machine just in case :razz.

King regards,
Jean-Cédric Sicotange
LFS fanboy making a ScaViEr pedestal

p.s.: my apologies if I overlooked the foreseen section for fanboys comments

S3 licensed
Quote from Amynue :IMO these two (pretty old) videos shows best what makes LFS better than other "simulators"

Can't wait for the new, even better physics

YES, you are wrote it very nice, I absolutely agree with you
Now used (old one, because there is prepared the new updated physics model) is BEST on the simulators market! Scawen (1 man only!!!) do very nice work with core of the LFS, opposite the all other big simulators makers companies with many people. Of course I don't forget other 2 people Eric and Victor who also do very nice work with other parts of this very nice simulator software (graphics, sound, music, web, etc...)
S3 licensed
S3 licensed
Quote from Scawen :I don't know, you'd have to ask Eric.

As I said before, this thread is Tyre Physics Progress Report + Scirocco discussion.

If you are starting to think this is random question time for Scawen, please think again... maybe it's time to close the thread.

dont's worry about some sarcastic posts, he not have minimal knowledge about the your hard work about a lot of studies and programming/debugging and developing od this very nice LFS product. Programming of Bug-less (SW without bugs) is very hard work for one man (programmer), it need a lot of time and studies and testing about it, and of course many studies about real tyre physics. But some people don't know it, and not appreciate it.
Some people wants a lot of cheap products, what have no value, but for him important is illusion or feeling of quatity, but real qulity and value of many mass produced products on the market is zero (not only SW, but also HW and other), there are many bugs or problems with them about quality or stability.
Then there are other people, who not need quantity of zero value products, but he need ONE product, but with high value. LFS have best tyre physics on the market with current tyre model (Z28), and there is no other comparable tyre physics on the market. But with new tyre model it will better, it will best of best on the market - I hope And tyre physics is most important thing in simulator. There are so many "simulator called" (game rather) products, with so many updates, every time new update, but basic core of product is not developed completely. I called these as Illusion. Most important for him is content what is still updated, but basic core of all these content is still not developed completly. It is as start build the building at the roof, without basis/foundations. It is building to the air - it is ILLUSION - in my opinion.
LFS developers are developing the CORE of product (LFS) (most important thing in simulator is tyre physics) to the higher possible level, and when basis/foundations will complete, then can continue with walls, and then with roof at end.
You, LFS developers, have right and serious way, I support and appreciate it
I'm sure, that here are still many positive tuned pepole who can appreciate your work, accept it as high value for as all. These people know that quality work need a lot of time and studies, and I also know it.
We all, your strong fans, we are still with you. I wish you a lot of energy (don't lose it) for next developing, and it will return back to us, as very nice, high value product LFS.
Have very nice day

EDIT: Sorry for mistakes in english, I have lower ENG language knowledge.
S3 licensed
NO NO NO steam!!! NEVER steam!!!
I hope that LFS never go on steam.
S3 licensed
Thank you for the new informations Scawen.
I'm also prefer the stability and quality, what is rare today - it is higher priority and value, I also not prefer quick release of unfinished and bug-full product.
I have understanding, and I agree with you.
Good luck to further developing
S3 licensed
Today I have read more Scawen's posts (some again or once more) from past few years, and I agree with him about LFS.

My opinion is: There out, in our world is so many products what has been very quickly developed and released, but their quality and reliability is so poor, that it is very poor! STOP STOP STOP of these product! I not need these products! I'm very disappointed with these products! Most of my past purchased products of last 5 yeras is very unstable and not reliable, but these products are developed by companies what has very good name and high qualities and reliable products before, I know, because I had some marks and companies what I like more as 5 years back (it is 10-15 years back), and before has very hi quality products, but in last 5 years there is some problem on the market. All quality and reliability of electronics and software products are rapidly going down! Functionality is raising and quality and reliability is going down. What is happen? There are more opened market as never before. There are more competition as never before. All companies want to be first with his product, and it need with minimal expenses or charges but with maximal profit. But it is mathematically not possible for very high quality and reliable products. If I want to develop some products I need some charges and expenses and time for it. If I want develop it in shorter time, then I need more expenses and charges and employes. But it is not possible to do it with no staff/employed personnel without expenses and without developing time. If I using this strategy, result will very quickly and cheaply developed product, but with very poor quality and non reliable product. Because hight quality and reliability need many time for developing, tuning and testing. I want no more (no longer) purchase any shit products from todays market, where is only profit is higher priority! I not need 1000 quickly developed and cheap products! I want 1 product, but with very high quality and reliability! - Are you understand the basics of my words?
Any electronics or SW products purchased in today have so many SW bugs as never before! And it is never updated or solved, because lifetime of all modern products HW or SW are so short, that after few months there were released "new" version or "next generatin" of that product and older version is going to garbage. But my question is: We need this? It will what quality or reliability? We have every month new cheap product, but with no VALUE!
Phylosophy of todays market is sell, but not customer's satisfaction!
Phylosophy of todays market is quantity, but not quality!
Phylosophy of todays market is profit, but not support!
If you want quantity, and every month "next generation" new products, then your choice can be Need for Speed (metaphorically) or any other mass-produced games or products (HW, SW, or electronics). But what new is in every new version of other "simulators" or racing games. Every years coming completelly new versions, but it is only content, but not core or engine of application. Real named cars, but with no real developed physics. Every time new graphics objects or textures, but in core of SW engine and physics engine is never updated. Every version is same game sell again, and again, with new objects (cars, tracks) but with same engine.

But LFS is other type of software. LFS not have everytime new graphics or objects, but it everytime have updated and better developed CORE of application, physics of the LFS, what is basic and most important thing of this very nice simulator. LFS not contain thousands real named cars with not real physics (except few licenced MRT, FBM, BF1, RAC). LFS contain unreal named cars (it is uselessly very expensive charges for 1 real car name, what is few letters), but LFS's cars are based on real cars with real physics and real behaviour, and real look/case/body, or very similar, but released only with unreal name. But simulation of cars will not better from few letters what is real name, but it will better from hard work and developing of high level simulation! In my opinion the LFS is not dying, just it is at beginning. There are so many things what must be to do in future in LFS. But LFS not have mammoth/mega/giant company with many office employees, who doing mostly marketing only, but not directly real technical work with the main product. LFS have 3 developers, from these ONE is programmer!!! LFS is very nice work and product from 1 programmer! It is very clean and stable SW product, with no bugs and mistakes, and with no garbage content (graphical or SW code)!!! LFS never crashed me, also as my old computers from 199x' years. But my new PC from 2007, and my many other new purchased electronics and SW products are very unstable and it have a lot of bugs and mistakes, what has not normally developed and tested with manufacturers.

LFS is only THE ONE stable and reliable product from many hundred other products what I purchased in past 5 years! I not need very quick released and most bug-full product! I need most stable and reliable product! And LFS is that product!

I have tried and tested many other "simulators" as rFactor, GTR series, RACE series, but all is only installed but not used (except first run). These are not bad (compare with NFS), but I'm still not satisfied with their physics modell. But LFS is used and played almost everyday second day (only everyday second day because I have primary work and other duties). LFS is best for me. It is stable, reliable, and have best physics modell on the simulator's market.

I not need XRT with real name, when it is based on real car with very similar look and behaviour of original. I not need modding. Many mods is only trash and garbage. There is many rFactor mods, but 99% is garbage. If I want VW Polo, or Renault Clio, or Skoda Fabia, or Fiat Punto, these are very similar cars with very similar behaviour and parameters. It is not priority to have all off these mods for XFG or real modell, when chassis and physics modell of all these mods is XFG. If you have in-car (cockpit) look, then you not need all these models. And if you have out-back look, then you are not racer, and better for you is go to play NFS.
Be patient, for bug-less and high quality product.
That is all, I want to say. Thank you
S3 licensed
I'm playing only LFS, because it have best physics simulation.
S3 licensed
Look at:
Secound is SK web page, but there are detail english screenshots.
S3 licensed
For what you are waiting? New patch not mean new LFS version (S3 or so...)
New patch bring some updates and new tyre model physics (but this one is also very good at today). But most things stay original. You not will seen new cars or tracks or objects or any visible things. LFS is not NFS where only visual updates are "updates". LFS is simulator and there are many things what should be updated and developed, but not all are visible. For what yor are waiting? If you are waiting every few months for new game, then play NFS or some similar game for children. LFS is racing simulator what need more precission work, but not as NFS or other screenshot generators. Even LFS is programming ONE MAN who do very nice job (plus 2 guys for graphics and web), and not 100-200 team members who doing only graphics, but no physics, and with 100 marketing managers with no real technical job on the final product.
Please, not awaiting new game with big changes from 1 programmer, but play with existing simulator, and you will pleasure from every small, but big value update when new patch is comming (when it will done). There are many things what need to do in LFS, but it need many time for 1 programmer. But final product from 1 programmer is most clean and stable, not as from 100 member team who generated big 50MB XY.EXE file with many not effective and not clean code, with 5GB final product with 5 min load time, and with no physics. If you want it, then go play NFS. But LFS is product of 1 programmer and 2 additional people for graphics, sound and web, and he are doing most clean and better product as some other screenshot generator teams with 100 members.
There are many things to do for 1 programmer, please leave him to work on this nice product, and not be impatient.
Suggested improvements log:
This all need to do.
S3 licensed
Quote from morpha :Most arcades do feature something many LFS users wish for though, a nice cockpit with a fully adjustable seat, full sized wheel and pedals and an H-shifter, some even have a proper handbrake!
Edit: That actually might make such arcades more realistic than the average LFS experience...

YES, YES, YES - realistic simulator and realistic cockpit
this is my ultimate realistic experience

Details here:
S3 licensed
I have done it defaultly to CTRL+F09,10,11,12 according to the guide. Then mapped it with Joy2Key to the game controller.
check the video at 3:20 to 4:00 for these functions.
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Hi, I'm also very interesting about this question, in past years I'm write similar thread, but I also not get answers. Then I started with this: ... tting_up_a_Logitech_Wheel
it is better, but it was still not original and best. Now, I know, there must be specialy tuned settings for each car in LFS. I'm not using same settings for each car. I still test the actual car with above setting and then tune it to better feeling. I dislike the behaviour of G25 at some Front-wheel drive cars in LFS. According to above settings, the wheel have next behaviour: At center it have totally 0% force, and if going more to end of steer (close to steer lock) it have very big unreal force. It is not real. In real car there is almost same force at any position of wheel (center or not center). In real car I feel still same force in wheel (independently if there is servo or not) - with servo it is easier (less force in whole scale) without servo harder (more force in whole scale), but there is still almost same force at any angle position of wheel. But in LFS at Front-wheel drive cars at center of wheel there is 0% force - it is not real. I'm serching for solution for it. I want same force at any angle of wheel (independently from angle of wheel at whole rotation scale). I want feel force at any position of wheel, also at center. I must feel same force also at center position, it is unreal with 0% force, alhough I have FFB set to 90% - at end of rotation scale it is very hard, but at center it have 0%. JDSIM - try it, and write your own experiences please.
Have somebody more real settings for real feeling?
S3 licensed
You have right idea about gauges, but temperature is not applied in LFS, yet (it is not programmed, yet - may be will in future)
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Random SW failures and damages is NOT best way. I NOT support this idea. Because there are many other components, what can get failure: PC HW, SW, OS, Drivers, USB connections, Wheel/Joystick, many other connected PC and controller peripherals, internet connections, servers, and many other in real life... - I have many experiences with these failures during the race, and it is very unvanted and unpleasant, if you dropped out from race due to some HW or SW failures. But you can take it as random car failures in real life. In real life there are some random failures on the real car. But at virtual race-sim there can be also random failures with HW, SW in real life during race, and not need programmed it to LFS code. I have more experiences with these type of failures, and I can not finish more races due to these HW,SW failures, it is very unpleasant. There is not need programmed random failures in the LFS algorithm, there are enough point of failures with the HW, and SW in the PC and controllers in the real life.
S3 licensed
Good idea - +1 from me
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Quote from brt900 :how much was the cost of the button box and was it hard to build. im considering building it
BU0836 Precision joystick controller = 32 Euro
36x buttons and switches + some switch covers + USB cables + some elctronics&components = cca 40-50 Euro
steel material and manufacturing = 70 Euro
summary = cca 140-150 Euro
not hard to build it, it depends on abilities/resources/skills
and many endurance/patience and precision work
S3 licensed
anttt69 - Yes, it is very ENHANCED version of FrexGP Motion cockpit. FrexGP is core of it, and I enhanced it with analog handbrake from real car, dashboard with many buttons, and chassis with small rotary wheel because it have no fixed place, I must parked it aside if not racing (small place in the room).

ACCAkut - Core and control electronics for dashboard is Leo Bodnar's Precision Joystick Controller BU0836 (36 button matrix).

Framaris - thanks time, money? ohh, yes, a lot of..., but now => big fun and experience. Spare neither time nor effort
Yes, I'm not married, but everyone says, that should be at this years hmmm, it is coming when it is coming, man never know...
But I know people who are married and have same hobby
About driving: I'm proud on my cockpit, I have no problems at real car driving - it is easy to do, but I'm still not proud on my virtual driving and lap times, I must improve it

TAYLOR-MANIA - I'm planing only one update, LED's, lamps, icons behind the stering wheel as in real car tachometer (headlights, L/R indicators, handbrake (!), TC, SpeedLimiter, etc...) but I don't know when it will done. I'm waiting for big help from my friend with it about electric connection project and programming SW for it to PC and PIC chip, because I not have enough know-how to projecting the IC circuits and software for it, and my friend is very busy and not have enough time to project it. I can to do and made it based on some project, but I don't know to project it, then I must wait for my friend, but I mean it will neverending story as I know... Then this upgrade is not seem too real, without any help about circuit and SW project. TrackIR is installed there (check it on top of monitor on the photos), but I no longer use it since I have Motion system. Rather there is way to 3 monitors, but I'm very indecisive about it, because I have very little space - not enough space in the work room, but I very desire for 3 monitors, it is open question yet :S
I know Buttkicker, but it is not need if Motion is installed. I preferred Buttkicker for Home Cinema System rather as for racing symulators.
And there were some ideas about bigger steering wheel with bigger diameter, and lever switches behind streering wheel as in real car. I had prepared for intall Ford Sierra lever switches:
But at this time I realised it with one homemade lever switch for L/R indicator only (for LFS), because with original G25 there is not enough space behind the wheel for real car lever switches.
These are some ideas from me, what were in the original project, but were not realised (yet), for technical reason, I not have enough resources (not money, rather technical reason) to realise these projetcs, yet. But man never know what future brought...

Experience: As I wrote above. I have problem with driving of virtual simulator from the classical office chair, because there are many physical and optical informations what are VERY missing for me. Because my driving and correct reaction and response to car behaviour is based 20% on sound, 40% on optical and 40% on physical informations from the environment. At virtual simulator without Motion system it was very big problem for me, because "physical information = 0%", "optical information = 20%" (for small FOV on the one monitor, perspective view as in real car is missing, there is very limited area to view). Only sound information is "complete". Then result is 20% of sound + 20% view + 0% physical information. Then there is only 40% informations, based on what I can proper reactions and response to car behaviour and driving. I say, I had problem with virtual driving. I'm not youngest generation man But now with "real" cockpit&motion&dashboard, there is better feeling and get another amount of needed informations. Now I'm feel the car behaviour, it is big value for me. But 2 sidelong monitors are still missing for me, there is still problem at close race. This my system with 3 monitors should be optimal for me.
And race times? As I say above, I need more practice to improve it But with Motion it is better and more realistic to driving for me!
But this all is my opinion! Any people can to have any opinions and requests for virtual driving. There are some 10-15 years old boys with static office chair who have better lap times as myself. They are young of modern virtual reality times
S3 licensed
Quote from The Lord 889 :do you have an older one ?

like this

YES, YES, YES - I want try this very early version (Unfortunately not public)
It is very similar to "Terep 2"
Terep 2 has been also cool off-road game with very good phisics engine in the 1996.
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Quote from hp999 :Sweet!

Gotta have some complicated wiring there ey.


The Wiring: ... 3ngAE&feat=directlink
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Quote from brt900 :do you have any plans that you used whilst building the cockpit

I planed it in AutoCAD. There were:
Project version 1, it has not been realised (it shold be no motion, but only static cockpit) - there were technical barriers at manufacturing (should be other profile types, and it should be welding)
Project version 2 - this one has been realised as motion cockpit. ... Wu8wE&feat=directlink
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Thanks to all for nice words

Answers for questions,
plans to make more? = unfortunately I'm not planing open business with cockpits. I made one piece for my own purposes. It should be nice business with it, but I'm not planing it, yet.

for Taylor:
total cost? = complete cockpit what you can see on the picture

cost 4500 Euro plus Logitech G25 (I'm owner of G25 from sonner times with higher price about 250 Euro at release time, now there is lower cost for G25, then G25 is NOT included to 4500 Euro, but all other on the cockpit is included). Of course PC with monitor and sound system also not incuded.

what is in the black folder? = heh, it is nice question. It is big mistery...
As you can hear from the music in the video presentation
"This is my church", then black forder is Bible for this church It contain complete manual about cockpit (settings, starting of system, button mapping and button codes, modificable parts descriptions), and I'm very big fan of LFS, then there is complete detail manual about LFS (all cars - engine and parameters and settings, power, RPM, wheel turn settings for each car etc.., all tracks versions and parameters, and distance, many things about racing and rules), and some other racing simulator manuals (race07, etc...), simply to say "Racer's Handbook" alias "My Blackbook". Many usefull information within reach from cockpit, any information I need about cockpit and racing and simulators, I not must unbuckle (disconnect) the belts and not must go away for it. In the cockpit I need to have all usefull things and informations within reach
Mistery of black folder is disclosed
S3 licensed
Dear S.Varjonen or hosts,

I have question about Event 2, Pool6, Race2.
I really not understand why I has not been placed on the grid between other cars at race Restart (race 2 start). I was on the track to the last second after finish of race 1. I never go to spectate or pit/garage during race1 and race2 (from race1 start to finish of race2). After finishing of race1, I did one more lap (my routine after finish) to go the oficial parking place behind the start line (or pit box if exist) (I not did U turn and go back after race, but did one more lap and parked on the parking place behing start line) and stay there until race restart (until race2 started). I seen countdown RESTART 5-4-3-2-1, and all cars were put on the grid, but I stay in the AIR (out view or what). Then I push the HOME key (for go to my own car - it is faster as more times TAB), but I can not find my own car. There were 12 cars on the track. I was surprissed, I quckly find the solution, but there were very short time, because green start were still closer and closer (i has few seconds). When HOME key was not worked, then I check all cars with TAB key, but I can not found my car. Then I know that my car is not on the track. WHY? I really can not reason. Hmmmm... Then only one solution remain. I press JOIN and go. But all cars were started before me more hundred meters around T2. Then I started as last and few seconds behind all cars. I really not know the reason, WHY I was not place on the grid at start of race2, when I were still on the track and not in the Pit or Spectate. This situation happened me FIRST time in LFS (more years LFS racing). Before this, at every start or restart I was still put on the grid, except one cause of this last OLFSL Race2.
You can check it all in the replay "pool6_race2.mpr".
Have you any description for this situation? It never happen me except this one. Remember, that I was not in Pit or Spectate. I has been on the track!