If you think there's anything in that video that even remotely resembles "realism" then I'm just wasting my time debating with you.
And like I've said a thousand times, I'm sure it's a great fun game. My one and only point is that it's far off a sim. It's not even an attempt at a sim. The only "simmy" thing about it appears to be the slogan they write on the box.
Get a grip on yourself mate. Writing in huge letters and saying the same dumb thing over and over again doesn't make you correct.
I don't have to play it to know it's not a simulation. I've explained why not very clearly in my post above so I'm not going to repeat myself.
Regarding the LFS video, I shouldn't have to state the obvious, but weird bugs that happen in some hacked-up version of a half-finished game isn't proof of anything. I will say that if the F1 does wheelies in the finished, un-hacked-up version of LFS, then I wouldn't be calling that a simulation either.
The guy overtakes about 50 cars in one lap and with his driving style he would have spun off in the first turn if it was even half a simulation.
If for you that is realistic then you're smoking crack. If you want to buy into their "The Authentic Driving Simulator" corporate marketing BS, then that's up to you. To me personally it looks more like a Need For Speed game. And let me make it clear I never said it wasn't fun or it's not a good game. I might love playing it, and the graphics look amazing. All I'm saying is it's not a high-fidelity simulation, no matter what they write on the box.
Seriously, I wonder if anyone bothered reading my previous posts or watching the videos. The guy launches as Ferrari F1, which is stupid enough to begin with. But the suspension acts like a matchbox car that a five year old is making "jump" with his hands.
Just watch the bloody video. If you still think it's realistic, then fair enough, good for you, I hope you have fun etc. etc. blah blah blah
I never said it wasn't a good game or fun or anything else. Just it's not a realistic simulation, and I stand by that.
Look, I was simply saying that racing a Formula One car using your thumbs on a playstation gamepad would not be an effective way to control a car in real life, and thus it shouldn't be in a real simulation either. The fact that it is in GT5P suggests it's not a "real simulation". If you disagree, then fine. Apparently you believe that a playstation gamepad could, in theory, be an effective tool to drive a real racing car. I don't. Never mind the fact that racing in a real car requires the drivers to sometimes use the brake, accelerator and clutch at the same time. But I'm obviously not getting through to you, so leave it at that, we agree to disagree, so no more talk about the gamepad because I think you're intentionally missing the point and confusing the subject.
The crux of what I am saying is basically: GT5P is not a high-fidelity racing simulation. If you don't get, or if you disagree with the point I was making about driving a racing car with a toy gamepad, then fine. Let's drop it and we'll move on to something that might offer more constructive debate: take a look at that video I posted on the last page and compare it to Hammond driving the F1 car.
Still think it's a highly realistic simulation? If so, discuss.
I'm not saying the option to use a gamepad is what makes a game unrealistic. I am saying that if the game works in such a way that you can successfully race a high-powered racing-car with a gamepad, then it's a safe bet that the game in question is probably not a "high fidelity simulation".
I'm not stating that as a fact, I might be wrong. I asked the genuine question to board members, who can drive well in LFS with a gamepad? If it is you, what are your best lap times? So far nobody has offered up anything.
This may be partially due to the fact that all the "best" racers use expensive steering wheel setups. Many of them complete with clutch and gear-shifter. If "interface doesn't matter", I wonder why they bother?
In fact, I maybe wrong, but isn't a steering wheel and pedal setup a minimum requirement for the new racing sim, iRacing? Like you said (below), thats because the games are marketed to different audiences.
They're simply not making high-fidelity racing simulations for consoles. Why? Because they wouldn't sell. Period. But all you really need to do is watch that video in my post on the previous page. It's laughable.
I just watched that GT5P formula one video on YouTube for the first time.
Seriously. You guys must be joking. If you think that looks even remotely realistic then you must be smoking crack. Watch especially the front suspension at around 1:30 when he launches the F1 car. It looks so stupid it's funny. ... and note also that it's set on "professional" physics with all the driving aids turned "off", so no excuses!
Seriously lads. If anybody here watches both those videos and still insists that it's a realistic simulation, all they are doing is proving their own complete ignorance when it comes to racing cars.
I'm honestly amazed that there's even any debate about this. But anyway, I'm opting out. I'm sure it's a great fun, high quality game. But some of you obviously just want to believe it's a realistic simulation so much that there's nothing I could say that would change your mind. So have fun.
P.S. Beautiful graphics. I love how the pit crew are moving around the car etc. before the session.
Is that right? I'm sure the F1 teams who pay up to $40,000 for the steering wheel in their cars would be interested to know they are wasting so much money. You should write to them and tell them all they need is a $20 playstation gamepad. I'm sure they'd be very grateful to receive your advice.
That's your opinion. My opinion is that it's not an exact and defining "proof" of quality, but it's a pretty good yardstick. Can drive a 600hp racing car with a gamepad? Safe guess it's probably not a "simulation". I'm not being a smart-arse here, it's a pretty simple and obvious deduction.
Really, by going on about Gran Turismo, some posters are only proving their complete ignorance of racing. Drivers have to take into account things like driving fast enough to get the brakes up to working temperature, let alone the tires. Also driving fast enough to get the downforce working.
Really, after viewing that you'd have to think it's pushing the definition even to call Live for Speed a real "simulation", ... and you're going to tell me driving a Ferrari F1 on a rally track, catching air with buggy suspension and a playstation gamepad is a "simulation"? The average playstation-head might like to think that his skills powersliding a ridiculously-high horsepowered racing car with his gamepad directly corelate to his real-life driving expertise, but that don't make it so. Really, if you're convinced there's nothing I can do to change your mind. As long as you're having fun I guess it's not important.
Anyway, I'm not saying LFS is a perfect sim either. If people can drive it with a gamepad or mouse and race well, then I dare say LFS is not a very good sim either. I'm just not so sure anyone can actually do that in LFS. I've asked multiple times if anyone here races well with a mouse/gamepad, and asked them to post some lap times, and so far there's been no takers...
... in comparison, GT5 is made to be played well with a gamepad. If there's kids (and I have nothing against kids, just using them as an example because they can't even drive a real car yet) who are capable of winning races in GT5 with a gamepad, then logic suggest it just aint no sim, period. Consider how much a steering wheel costs in a real F1 car ... I forget the actual number but it's something ridiculous ... $100,000 or something, just for the steering wheel. If only they knew they could use a playstation gamepad instead...!
Do a YouTube search for the Top Gear episode where they drive the F1 car. This is a guy whose whole life and profession revolves around cars. He's driven more racing cars and super sports cars in real life than everyone on this forum put together, times by one hundred. And he struggles to drive the F1 car at even half racing speed. Maybe he should have been using a playstation gamepad? ... or maybe he should have practiced getting mad air with the F1 in GT5 first?
Anyway, I realise that driving the F1 in LFS looks easy compared to that YouTube video too. I guess maybe LFS isn't as realistic as people think either. However, my guess is it's a hell of a lot better than GT5. Yes I admit, at this stage that is only a guess; but it's not intended to be "driven" with a $20 plastic gamepad for starters.
P.S. I'm not angry at anyone. I enjoy discussing these things and I'd be glad to admit I was mistaken if someone can point out where I am going wrong. If some of you are taking offence or not enjoying the discussion, just leave the thread, easy. I'm not out to offend anyone by saying I doubt GT5 is a good sim or by saying that rFactor is abetter sim than most people think.
Yes that would be true ... if people are controlling racing machines with the mouse and winning races, that is. I asked before, does anyone here race with the mouse/gamepad and race effectively? If so, I'd be interested to hear about it (seriously), so speak up and tell us your best lap-times.
That says a lot. I'm not surprised at all. As someone else pointed out earlier, a lot of the "playstation gang" seem to equate "realism" with having great graphics or a large selection of real-life vehciles and tracks. That might be cool, but what I'm talking about is simulating the physics of racing cars.
Well I haven't "played" GT5, and I don't plan on it either (not planning on buying an xBox or playstation or whatever). I admit, I could be wrong, but for reasons I've already outlined, I just can't believe it could be a bona-fide "racing sim" :-
All you have to do is consider what we're talking about to come to a logical conclusion. GT5 is a mass-produced product that "simulates" 500 cars (or whatever), and it's aimed at the console market. Most of the target audience are kids who can't even properly handle the clutch on their parent's station wagon yet, let alone a pure-bred racing machine... and they would be controlling that racing machine with a playstation gamepad ... and winning races! In this case, simple logic suggests they're hardly going to be making a high-fidelity simulator. Getting a racing car around the first corner at half-racing speed would be a commendable acheivment for a 14 year old with a gamepad. They might market the game as "realistic", but that doesn't make it so." (from an above post, slightly edited)
I realize that harder does not mean "more realistic", however, you have concede to logic. And if the same is true for LFS or rFactor, then they're not very good sims either. I was amazed to hear that some people apparantly drive with the mouse and keyboard. "How effectively?" is the question though.... I guess there's a reason that there's so many "cruise" drivers around...
Is there anyone here who effectively races with anything but a high-quality steering-wheel and pedal setup? Speak now, what are you best lap times?
In the case of GT5, I'm sure it's forgiving enough to succeed racing the game with a gamepad, and that alone suggests it is no simulator ... unless you're Playstation's answer to Michael Schumacher with magical playstation thumbs.
Put it this way, if the average playstation-fan can drive a racing car competitively with a gamepad, they would install gamepads in the real cars. Either that or GT5 is no "simulator". I wonder...