The online racing simulator
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Breizh
S2 licensed
Scawen the dynamic lighting thread got locked, and you don't take PMs, so I'll suggest here:
https://twitter.com/inovae_keith has been working with a small team to make a game which has some of the best atmospheric rendering techniques. He periodically retweets papers and tweets on the subject.

I dunno if you would gain something from those different more high-end implementations, but maybe something applicable could come from sifting thru that collection. IIRC many of them are first principles analyses not yet actually translated to code.

You may have to go back a ways in his tweet history, as they're now pretty far along in the game's pipeline.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
I would play the poop out of it, as is. Tongue
Breizh
S2 licensed
Work a small single digit number of hours and forget about the question altogether.

If you like LFS, you'll like whatever extra content, especially after 10 years, and the idea that your handful of $CURRENCY will help LFS move fwd that bit more.

The question is better worth asking for something truly substantial like investing in new simpit gear or something. If you've been gone 10 years then (IIRC) you missed the VR developments, for one.
Breizh
S2 licensed
Looks awesome.
Breizh
S2 licensed
I want to travel back in time to tell me old self to time travel forward in time for this LX8
Quote from Scawen :
DISCLAIMER:
It will not be developed or included in future versions

nnnNOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote from MKRYDR :Nissan Skyline GTR (R34)

This is a Good AWD that can be listed as a TBO (Turbo), Plus it is a Japanese super car

It'd probably fit better in the FZ5 class.
Breizh
S2 licensed
All it means is that you cannot see it, not that it won't happen. They're two different things.

The car and track suggestions thread do not have to cause all of those specific cars and tracks to be added, to have been worthwhile. Maybe you can chew on that yourself to see how that makes sense.

Quote :Sometimes some month(s) nothing happens at all.... It is no serious development cycle

That's a pretty pretentious assertion. Unless I'm misreading it. I really doubt you could walk up to Scavier at work and seriously tell them they're not serious about it. They've been nothing if not serious about their work style choices and about LFS itself.

I reckon you have some perceptual bias that would not be solved without some serious intervention, e.g. shooting the shit in earnest about work philosophy with Scavier over beers.
Quote : Yes maybe at some point this dreaded tyre physics gets released in some sort of simplified form and yes there will be some track updates of fantasy tracks.. But.. That.. Will be about it.

Even if that were how it turned out, saying something like that, this far ahead of time and in spite of everything Scavier have said and done, would have been a serious lack of deference to the people actually working on getting the game done.

You may disagree with them but you do not get to disrespect them.

--
All that said, I will concede that I have almost exactly the same type of work style preference. It makes things absolutely 1000x better, for me and for the quality of work. And the company I started on those principles is still working and attracts more of the same kind of people who appreciate that work ethic. Win-win.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
By third party I mean user made contributions. It's Scawen who said it (IIRC) recently, so it shouldnt be hard to find.

here it is: https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1927934#post1927934
Breizh
S2 licensed
That's the plan. IIRC something like : the current work is the last one before they work on third party contributions system.
AKA "If you wouldn't say it in person..."
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote from cargame.nl :Here is a 181 pages long thread (running for 12 years);

Cars we wanna see in S3 , about car requests. Together with the 'tracks we want to see' thread, the most useless threads of these forums Wink

No need to start repeating it.

.

That is so the best icebreaker ever, should one meet Scavier in person.
/s; emph mine


Actually that thread could be restarted by someone who's willing to stick around once a month or something, to keep it up to date. That way any new/returning readers have a TLDR right off the bat. I'd be willing to do it (and stick around for 10 more years or whatever) if none of the mods/devs object.
It'd have 1 line per car and ≥ 1 link -per to a pic and/or wiki type page.

Same for the tracks thread.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
Well done Scavier.
Breizh
S2 licensed
Off topic and distasteful thread hijack.
Breizh
S2 licensed
I wait it.
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote from Macfox :
Quote from MiniVan :I havent played for quite some time, I was wondering if there were going to be any continued progress updates of significance ever going to happen any time soon?

No. LFS in software terms is end of life. A few token updates, (that those in denial will point out) that aren't trivial, but add little to rejuvenating the "racing" game. It's been that way for nearly 10 years and certainly will not change.

I picture the devs sitting in front of BW TV's, working towards building the 1st colour TV, only they deny it's 2015, but hey we've got a tethered remote control and a manual in 100 different languages....We're getting there.

Time to get a new crystal ball. Real world motorsports never underestimate the importance of tires. LFS is no different. The real litmus test will be once the rubber revision is done -- how much or little updating LFS gets afterwards.

[ ... ]
Last edited by Scawen, . Reason : removed part of the post that was probably just quoting a typo
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote from dawesdust_12 :
Quote from cargame.nl :We need WWIII or something to reset some value in life

Yeah, because war solves everything.


This proves how absolutely ridiculous and out of touch your views on reality are.

No, he is on target for this point. That is the general, macro trend with people.



Change those words to basically any particular domain, and the trend remains the same.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
Stop screwing with Scavier's enthusiasm.
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote from ToxicKlay :I'm by no means endorsing VOB mods, I'm highlighting the fact that custom car mods are not a new thing.

What I did back then was entirely legal, using Tweak. That's part of why it seems so feasibly to crowd source a rough first batch of new car candidates. The impact on cars performance from their VOB-dependent physics is AFAICT marginal. The only major obstacle I recall was not being able to change the suspension types. E.G. the XFG's crappy rear end.

--


Quote from S.E.T.H :
Quote from Breizh :
Quote : your idea of "letting people create cars, but not letting people put it in the game" is no different.

With all due respect I'm going to take Scawen's word over yours.

what words?

That's the point. That regardless if he's said something or even decided anything WRT to it, his word will trump yours.


Quote :do you think those people use lfs just because they are so interested in modified lfs cars, or they just found the perfect platform, the most easy to use? the latter is the answer. not that tweaking made them so much interested with the game. dont release anything and they'll be here for years and not ask for anything.

Which could just as well be a distinction without a difference: the modded cars are no less cars than official cars are cars. Quality cars will out-compete crappy cars. It is not comparable to expecting that LFS could not survive tools enabling or helping free roaming and/or drifting because that would trigger a landslide player migration to those modes and completely starve conventional racing. It's not anything so black and white, with a fair share of all server types getting players, with the higher quality servers regardless their type being most popular.


Quote :and most of those servers are demo fyi. which means for them its again not the cars but the platform itself.

That's not an inherent consequence as you imply it is, and aren't they demo because that's all Tweak can edit - the unencrypted cars?

Quote :once this effect is gone then what? now if scawen releases this scirocco, even though it won't be so much different as he said, it will make us see new faces. once he gets modding tools out, he won't have the same chance anymore. lets wait and see what kind of hype westhill will bring and think about what kind of hype would it bring if we were already able to create tracks as we wanted. rarity of content is what makes it valuable.

Taking an unproven assumption for granted, and more evidence that for you having the last word trumps everything else, so really I think this discussion is done. Man, I forgot how so many in motorsports "communities" are such ...
IMO that's the real problem during these long stretches without updates.

--
Anyway... A invite-only and/or NDA (by Scavier) pool of car builders using tweak like programs could cover the "proliferation" issue. It could additionally have some kind of server-side baking of user-submitted "tweak" parameters. But that really reduces the breadth and depth of user-made permutations. Ultimately that's one of the major missing parts of LFS - way too little volume and variety in the carset.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
We don't actually need to have VOBs, do we?...

We could hash out a lot of the basic playtesting using "crappy" tweak approximations... Then Scavier pick out whatever car formulas they think best fit into the carset.

Quote from ToxicKlay :On the topic of self-made car mods, I'm certain VOBs fit in there. It's so easy to download and then mod an isolated installation of LFS with VOB mods. It's also illegal because most VOB mods use actual car bodies without license. The only thing you're missing from installing the mods is multiplayer; that would be the only advantage provided to having an official way to create cars for LFS.

The bodywork is mostly independent of the stuff available to Tweak apps, right? IIRC the rims are also part of the physics. But AIUI the difference in physics that a different car model makes, is in the later part of design. IE fine tuning.

Right now, and this is an assumption, the LFS car classes have plenty of rooms for more varied new cars. I'm pretty sure of it because I did it myself. Added a few cars to the LRF class and they were even enough that lap times were competitive over a few tracks (IIRC we'd tested them on SO4, Blackwood, and Fern Bay black). Changed the XFG into an AWD turbo kit car like in amateur rally, the XRG into a big Muscle/Corvette-ish (IIRC because an exact Corvette replica was too fast), and the XRT into an F430 replica. The intent was to produce cars that were
1) Fun
2) As different as possible from what LFS already had
And as a proof of concept, it worked IMHO.


So maybe it ultimately (when Scavier and/or all players evaluate it) wouldn't work well enough , but I made it work that well on my own. If I can do that, and the idea isn't wrong (I've seen no reason to think so) 10-50 players could definitely do it well enough. And of course those specific cars were just examples. It is just a proof of concept.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote : your idea of "letting people create cars, but not letting people put it in the game" is no different.

With all due respect I'm going to take Scawen's word over yours.

Quote :and about the timing thing, you are talking about the time up until modding tools release, I am talking about what will happen after the tools have been released.

You can read my mind! Haha!

Quote :yes its full of tweak servers. you just need to know how to see them. and tweaking a car and using a completely different car: 2 different things. latter being much more intriguing.

How do you not see that that's what I described. If there's a few things that suck about LFS, one of them is this sort of teenage level pseudo conversation. Having the last word completely trumps actually getting to the bottom of things.

If you can't see how what we have can be used to get to what I described, then I dunno. I'm not gonna connect the dots for you.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
It's a straw man because you invent this loaded premise of LFS modding tools that completely open up game-killing vulnerabilities, and then pretend that that's the only way LFS could possibly be programmed. That you can't imagine something, is not evidence that it can't be done.

Quote from S.E.T.H :
you got that right. "you" as in "devs" in your claim, who is supposed to let good cars in and bad cars out, which is not possible cause its not up to you to decide anymore.

Why isn't LFS server list full of Tweak servers, Right Now?

Quote from S.E.T.H :where did you talk about timing? I must have missed it, or you didnt say that at all? I think the latter is the case.

...And there it is. Good old snide rhetoric. Houdini would be proud. LOL!

Quote : A way for player-made content to be added after a long time

Quote :something tells me there's some reason that even that's not an option to Scavier, so far.

Quote : long before getting to post-mortem there'll be things they can do to light a fire under LFS.

Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote :you can't just pick the content you want

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Structure
Quote :everybody will have any car they want

And unicorns.
Quote :point is you can't just stop people once you release tools.

You can't stop people hosting awful servers now either. How popular are they?
Quote :its harder to make cars handle so much different than each other- so when scawen tries to push lfs with a car or two when modding hype starts to decline, then nobody will be interested as much anymore.

Also a strawman: I specifically said the timing mattered.
Breizh
S2 licensed
I don't see why user-made and official content are mutually exclusive.

We don't need much quality content. Even half as much user content as official content would be a very good situation. The main problem (or one of them) with user content is player dilution by the sheer variety of content. But if (e.g.) Scavier restrict things a bit with only new cars that fit within the official car classes, things quickly are more manageable. So user-content isn't inherently hopeless as you and others seem to argue.

I do think there'll be enough who both care and know about quality, for the best user-made content to be really good. For instance I edited an LFS car to as close as possible to a Lamborghini as LFS Tweak allowed, back then, and Flotch fairly quickly made a really good base setup. Now, I'm not saying that ripping off real world car designs so blindly is ideal, but IMHO it does show that
1. There are players around who know quality and care about it enough to produce high quality content
2. LFS is a good enough platform that it's possible to so readily make new and fun cars
3. LFS carset has so many holes in it that we're nowhere near the point of diminishing returns
Another example: Bob Smith's NASCAR mod. Again the underlying platform that is LFS shows how flexible and potent it is.
Quote from S.E.T.H :lfs is quite old

You might say tried and tested. New physics and crowd(ish)-Q.A.'d new cars to add variety to each car class on their own would IMO really make LFS hard to resist at least trying again. Even if I'm partial to LFS, I think that's a pretty fair assessment.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote from S.E.T.H :that window mode while connecting bugged me for years Big grin and it still does when i make a fresh install. first thing one does when he/she cant see servers is exit lfs, in which case one will already see the error message so its not needed i think.

letting community create cars will give it a short lived "lfs is active" illusion, then it will go down, and even if devs release new official cars, it wont excite us as much as it now would. like the saying too many cooks spoil the stew. rarity of content for years is what made us so hungry for updates. ac got that "dream pack", but I am more excited for westhill.

I don't understand the part in bold. It seems like a contradiction.

//

I think some intermediate formula would work. A way for player-made content to be added after a long time, is better than no way at all. E.G. player-made content submitted to some more or less gated QA system, where (e.g.) submissions are filtered up thru increasingly strict evaluation, with Scavier at the top and a larger group of testers at the bottom of the pyramid. It doesn't have to be a pyramid; the point is only that even a very long wait to approve only the highest quality submissions would be better than nothing at all.

But something tells me there's some reason that even that's not an option to Scavier, so far.
Breizh
S2 licensed
Quote from loopingz :Other game are super custom open and customized. That does not make them any better... Let The dev work and deliver us a quality bug free sim with a Feeling to it!

A pretty false dichotomy.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG